KMacGinley
Well-known member
Smaller cows are better. You can run 120 3 frame cows for every 100 6 frame cows and the 450 lb calves are worth more per pound. Another Pharo Philosophy. What do you all think?
Smaller cows are better?
- Thread starter KMacGinley
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ALACOWMAN
Well-known member
wish i had of known that years ago. when i went out on the limb for the farm. id of just fenced in my back yard
rocket2222
Well-known member
It takes about a year for a 3 frame cow to raise a 450lb calf. Yeah I know, they don't cost to much to feed though. 
Didn't we go through this about 30-40 years ago, it didn't work then either.
Didn't we go through this about 30-40 years ago, it didn't work then either.
I don't think I have ever seen a load 3.5 or 4 frame feeder calves. But I have seen 4.5 to 5 and in our area, the buyers will dock you 9 times out of 10.
Lighter weight calves do bring more per pound, but these calves are ussually younger and have the frame to put on the wieight. These little "black bear" (under Frame 5) type calves just won't cut it. They will get to fat and give you all kinds of yield grade 4's and 5's when you are done. The buyers won't buy them again.
Remember, who your customer is. It is ussually the feedlots, and Pounds are king to them. The lots I deal with, want a moderate to large frame animal, and they will pay for them.
Lighter weight calves do bring more per pound, but these calves are ussually younger and have the frame to put on the wieight. These little "black bear" (under Frame 5) type calves just won't cut it. They will get to fat and give you all kinds of yield grade 4's and 5's when you are done. The buyers won't buy them again.
Remember, who your customer is. It is ussually the feedlots, and Pounds are king to them. The lots I deal with, want a moderate to large frame animal, and they will pay for them.
If frame 3's-4's are better than frame 5's-6's-7's.
Then frame 0's should be absolutely unbeatable. :roll:
Had those tiny cattle in the 60's. Dang near took a year to get calves big enough to bring any dollars.
I'll hang out with dun on this one.
Then frame 0's should be absolutely unbeatable. :roll:
Had those tiny cattle in the 60's. Dang near took a year to get calves big enough to bring any dollars.
I'll hang out with dun on this one.
Well, I tell you what.
I've got a pretty good idea that the "average" seedstock cow is too big, and that we talk more about curvebenders than we actually do to make them.
I've also got a pretty good idea that anyone who is penciling these things out so that one end of the spectrum looks better than the other is leaving something out.
If you sit down and run the numbers honestly without assuming that if they are tall they are narrow, or if they are small, they are fat little furballs, you will see that there is very little difference in the numbers for either system.
It is simply a preference then, and making sure that your cows match your system. Where either end gets beat to death is when you try to make it work in the opposing system.
Badlands
I've got a pretty good idea that the "average" seedstock cow is too big, and that we talk more about curvebenders than we actually do to make them.
I've also got a pretty good idea that anyone who is penciling these things out so that one end of the spectrum looks better than the other is leaving something out.
If you sit down and run the numbers honestly without assuming that if they are tall they are narrow, or if they are small, they are fat little furballs, you will see that there is very little difference in the numbers for either system.
It is simply a preference then, and making sure that your cows match your system. Where either end gets beat to death is when you try to make it work in the opposing system.
Badlands
rocket2222":58pctgsi said:
Yes we went through this years ago but not so long ago we went through the bigger is better faze too and found out that was not the answer.
Why is it that most of the very large cattle operations run angus hereford and baldie cows?
They know that in the end compared to a med framed cow the larger framed cows can not produce as much beef on forage alone while keeping their health and breeding back on time.
I would not go so far as to say a 3 frame is the med sized cow we are after 4-5 is a bit closer.
grassfarmer
Member
Maybe you should check out the carcass data produced by people using Pharo's bulls? It would refute the claims that these cattle are too small, too fat, too poor growers to make money. Most of the move to "bigger" cattle with higher frame scores has simply meant a move to longer legs and cattle with more air beneath their bellies. As Pharo says this extra six inches of air is worthless - it doesn't weigh anything, you can't eat it but it does substantially increase your cow maintanence costs and feedlot steers production cost.
KMacGinley":3azyfeh4 said:
I agree completely with that statement. I remember one extremely well managed straight Angus farm near here that ran 2-3 frame little cows at 1 pair per acre AND still made enough hay to winter that whole herd (this IS Alabama not Canada so our winter is relatively subtropical) and they had shaded fence rows in every pasture. Doing that with 140 6 frame cows on the same ground might be pushing the envelope. AND those little cows will wean a higher percent calf crop and require less grain for development than will larger cattle.
IF the cow calf sector RAN this business, I think most of us would have 3 frame cattle today. The problem is the feedlots and the packers. They wield a tremendous amount of power and a small frame calf just does not perform real well in the feedlot and typically hangs a fatter (ie less valuable) carcass and the packing plants are all run for speed. It takes just as long and costs just as much to process an 800 lb carcass as it does a 550 lb carcass and you get 30% less product to sell for your effort. Sure a lot of order buyers are going to get fooled a lot of times by a high 3 or 4 frame weaned calf out of small mamas; BUT a good percentage of the time a small mama is going to produce a small calf and when that 2-3 frame grass fat little toad hits the scale at ~400 lbs, the order buyers who are going to have a career in this business are going to recognize that calf as a little fat, future YG 4 toad, that will only gain about 2.2 lbs a day in the feedlot and a 15-20 $cwt dock is going to be assessed against those USDA small feeder calves. To get those 3 frame heifers you covet you are going to have to breed small frame cows to small frame bulls and when you do that you get stuck with selling a bunch of steer calves that are likely to get docked heavy at the sale barn.
Assuming your calves get no dock for frame or phenotype, we also get paid by the lb, a 570 lb steer last month brought $566.35. A 450 lb steer (~same frame and thickness) brought ~$517 (from March 'ALabama Cattlemans Mag.' pg. 62). Selling a heavier calf generated another $49 in profit per cow. You can not convince me that it costs $49 more to keep a 4.5-5.5 frame cow than it does a 3 frame cow. Interestingly bumping up your calves ANOTHER 94 lbs last month to 664 would have actually COST YOU almost $7 a head over the 570 lb calves. Red Angus is right a 4-5.5 frame cow is probably the optimum size at this time and is the best compromise between the interests of the producer and the interests of the feedlot and packer.
houstoncutter
Well-known member
Brandonm2":7g979217 said:
houstoncutter
Well-known member
Brandonm2":2gig4he4 said:
Well stated,if you have a niche market to seel to , so be it. Otherwise stick to the middle of the road.
*Cowgirl*
Well-known member
sounds like a load of crap to me
the data i have shows that with equally efficient cow herds, the same total pounds of calf are the same, but the higher price for smaller calves makes smaller animals (less weight, not just frame) more valuable.
if 100 "regular" cows average 1347 lb, the same forage resources should support 120 cows averaging 1055 lb.
in the end, they both produce 66650 lb of calf, but the 120 smaller calves bring in almost $4000 more with the market price differential.
i can clean it up and post it if anybody wants to see it.
if 100 "regular" cows average 1347 lb, the same forage resources should support 120 cows averaging 1055 lb.
in the end, they both produce 66650 lb of calf, but the 120 smaller calves bring in almost $4000 more with the market price differential.
i can clean it up and post it if anybody wants to see it.
