Simmental Color Characteristics

[Silver]

Where are you located? I ask because what I see here is opposite of what you posted. Again a case of different locale making a difference. I also watch some auctions online. Haven't this fall much but did last spring. Saw Simmi cross calves cut off of a bunch more than once.

Personally I was taught to judge an animal by their type and quality and not by their color, chrome or lack of. And I see some Simmi's on here I really like. Here a good Hereford/Angus black baldie is the only thing that will outsell a good straight Angus.

I'm up in NE British Columbia. But calves from here tend to go to feedlots in southern Alberta, sometimes Ontario, and sometimes the US.
The Black Angus calves will do as well as any other breed in their weight class, but it's the heavy calves that earn the dollars per head and straight Angus just don't get there.

They do here. The heaviest calves we raise here are the Hereford/Angus F1 cross but our PB Angus are right there.

Well if you are weaning 700 lb steers at 200 days you are way out in front of the curve from what I've seen in these parts for sure.

 

[Bigfoot]

I'd use one these bulls out there today, but their simmental in any way, beyond the name.

May I put this in my words only for clarification?

Your statement is that today's Simmentals are Simmentals in "label" only and are not the progeny of the ancestral American Simmental?

Is that correct? If that is correct, then the only explanation is that the current "Simmentals" were just pulled out of a hat by a Wizard?

The current American Simmental Cattle are Simmentals, not only in name but in blood or better, they still foster the original Simmental genome. I think - please, help me with this - what you mean is that the breed has dramatically changed over the last 50 years. Some of that change has resulted from the introduction of positive traits from other breeds. It would be difficult to quantify to what extent other breeds of cattle have influenced the current Simmental. Keep in mind, all breeds of cattle have diverged from a common ancestor. The Art of Breeding is focused on producing the desired traits the breeder covets. There is no "sin" or "penalty" for introducing genes that improve the breed.

Yes, I am saying they are simmental in name only. Lots of breeds have made the same type of drastic change. The breeds that didn't got left behind. Simmentals had good leadership, and progressive membership. If they hadn't, the breed would be just filling a little niche now. How genetically similar are they to the old school sims? I don't know. How physically similar are they? Not even close. No majic involved, beyond careful selection.

 

[redcowsrule33]

If buyers were colorblind and the herdbook was closed would we have the same modern simmental? Or put another way could we have achieved the same phenotype we have now without allowing crossbreeding to the extent that we do if hide color was irrelevant?

 

[Bright Raven]

Yes, I am saying they are simmental in name only. Lots of breeds have made the same type of drastic change. The breeds that didn't got left behind. Simmentals had good leadership, and progressive membership. If they hadn't, the breed would be just filling a little niche now. How genetically similar are they to the old school sims? I don't know. How physically similar are they? Not even close. No majic involved, beyond careful selection.

That quotation is a contradiction. I believe the contradiction is the result of semantics rather than your misunderstanding.

You state that the Modern Simmental is Simmental in name ONLY. That implies that the Modern Simmental has no ancestral connection to the genetic pool of original Simmental Cattle.

Then you state: How genetically similar are they to the old school sims? which implies that they are the progeny of the ancestral Simmental.

I knew that was what you meant. I just wanted to establish that for the benefit of discussion.

The real issue is "quantitatively" how "genetically" connected are they to the original genetic pool of Simmentals? We can say that they share 99% of the original genome but as Lazy M stated, that does not have great significance.

The point to this is: The Modern Simmentals are Simmental in more than name only. You, yourself, and I have confessed that there is a connection to the original genetic pool.

To put it academically:

Today's modern Simmental Cattle are the progeny of the original ancestral Simmentals.

 

[Bright Raven]

If buyers were colorblind and the herdbook was closed would we have the same modern simmental? Or put another way could we have achieved the same phenotype we have now without allowing crossbreeding to the extent that we do if hide color was irrelevant?

You are doing a lot of if'in.

If frogs had wings they could fly.

I agree with your implications.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

You would have been an excellent professor Birdman. Of course I would have dropped your class by the third session.

 

[True Grit Farms]

If buyers were colorblind and the herdbook was closed would we have the same modern simmental? Or put another way could we have achieved the same phenotype we have now without allowing crossbreeding to the extent that we do if hide color was irrelevant?

Not a chance, Simmental was a milk cow first and beef cow second. Simmental are hard doing cattle that thrive with some help. And if Simmental and Fleckvieh are the same breed wouldn't that make a Simmental a crossbred cow since the beginning?

 

[cattleman99]

It's the Simmental advantage. They are the most adaptable breed in the world. There is not another breed that can offer what the can. My personal favourites, which don't work here, the mellow yellow ones are popular in BRITAIN, IN North America we have Red, Black, Fullblood and Fleckvieh, polled and horned and in many parts of the world they are used as Milk Cows as they work well fixing some of the issues that plaque the Holsteins. There are many different strains of them bred to work from the tropics to as far North and South as cattle can survive and to work in both dairy and beef production.

And I have never seen them not work to improve the product in a cross breeding situation, regardless of the other breed involved. Call it breed pimping if you want, but they work everywhere and in every climate. They are the one stop shop breed.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Simmental struggle in the heat and don't fend for themselves very well in the woods of the south. That's the main reasons I add Hereford to the mix, then they seem to make a pretty good commercial cow. There IS a reason a SimAngus out sells a Simmental.

 

[Bright Raven]

It's the Simmental advantage. They are the most adaptable breed in the world. There is not another breed that can offer what the can. My personal favourites, which don't work here, the mellow yellow ones are popular in BRITAIN, IN North America we have Red, Black, Fullblood and Fleckvieh, polled and horned and in many parts of the world they are used as Milk Cows as they work well fixing some of the issues that plaque the Holsteins. There are many different strains of them bred to work from the tropics to as far North and South as cattle can survive and to work in both dairy and beef production.

And I have never seen them not work to improve the product in a cross breeding situation, regardless of the other breed involved. Call it breed pimping if you want, but they work everywhere and in every climate. They are the one stop shop breed.

Can I get an Amen?

Praise you brother. :heart:

Seriously, I like these discussions but at the end of the day - people believe what they want to believe. I like my Simmental and Simangus cattle. They do well for me and my circumstances. I don't consider myself a "breed pimp". The most important trait to me is docility. Since I am 100 % AI and I am a hands on producer who does almost 100 % of my own vet work. They have to be easy to handle. My Simmental Cattle are like dogs. I mean that literally.

 

[Bright Raven]

There IS a reason a SimAngus out sells a Simmental.

Vince I have been moving more toward PB for the bulls. My semen selections are mostly PB. Because a lot of buyers are looking for PB bulls to use with Angus cows.

 

[True Grit Farms]

It's the Simmental advantage. They are the most adaptable breed in the world. There is not another breed that can offer what the can. My personal favourites, which don't work here, the mellow yellow ones are popular in BRITAIN, IN North America we have Red, Black, Fullblood and Fleckvieh, polled and horned and in many parts of the world they are used as Milk Cows as they work well fixing some of the issues that plaque the Holsteins. There are many different strains of them bred to work from the tropics to as far North and South as cattle can survive and to work in both dairy and beef production.

And I have never seen them not work to improve the product in a cross breeding situation, regardless of the other breed involved. Call it breed pimping if you want, but they work everywhere and in every climate. They are the one stop shop breed.

Can I get an Amen?

Praise you brother. :heart:

Seriously, I like these discussions but at the end of the day - people believe what they want to believe. I like my Simmental and Simangus cattle. They do well for me and my circumstances. I don't consider myself a "breed pimp". The most important trait to me is docility. Since I am 100 % AI and I am a hands on producer who does almost 100 % of my own vet work. They have to be easy to handle. My Simmental Cattle are like dogs. I mean that literally.

Your cattle are not pushed, their babied and fed good to great hay. I've put some nice looking well bred cows in the woods and heat and they just fall apart under my management. Inyati, I think you can make any breed tame, look at the cattle some of terrorist in India and other places use.
IMO, Hereford are the most easy going cattle.

 

[Bright Raven]

Your cattle are not pushed, their babied and fed good to great hay. I've put some nice looking well bred cows in the woods and heat and they just fall apart under my management. Inyati, I think you can make any breed tame, look at the cattle some of terrorist in India and other places use.
IMO, Hereford are the most easy going cattle.

My cattle are not pushed. Agree.
My cattle are extremely well cared for. Agree.
Most breeds can be tamed but mine hit the ground tame. My calves in a month are like lambs. I think that is a virtue of the Simmental breed.

 

[True Grit Farms]

There IS a reason a SimAngus out sells a Simmental.

Vince I have been moving more toward PB for the bulls. My semen selections are mostly PB. Because a lot of buyers are looking for PB bulls to use with Angus cows.

The only reason for a pure bred Simmental is to make a SimAngus, that I agree with. I do the same but get mine out of a straw. BW and calf configuration in using a Simmental bull isn't worth the risk. The use of EPD's have really help the Simmental breed, probably more than any other breed.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Your cattle are not pushed, their babied and fed good to great hay. I've put some nice looking well bred cows in the woods and heat and they just fall apart under my management. Inyati, I think you can make any breed tame, look at the cattle some of terrorist in India and other places use.
IMO, Hereford are the most easy going cattle.

My cattle are not pushed. Agree.
My cattle are extremely well cared for. Agree.
Most breeds can be tamed but mine hit the ground tame. Mt calves in a month are like lambs. I think that is a virtue of the Simmental breed.

Your smarter than to post something like that. My Simmental cattle aren't tame or like lambs? My tamest cow at the moment is a Beefmaster, I need some more of them by the way, but dang can they jump.

 

[cattleman99]

You realize Simmental are as easy or easier calving than Angus right?

 

[True Grit Farms]

You realize Simmental are as easy or easier calving than Angus right?

Sell that crap somewhere else. At one time having BW and calving problems was a Simmental trait, same as Charolais. The issues aren't like they once were, but the fact is you can't change history.

 

[cattleman99]

You realize Simmental are as easy or easier calving than Angus right?

Sell that crap somewhere else. At one time having BW and calving problems was a Simmental trait, same as Charolais. The issues aren't like they once were, but the fact is you can't change history.

So you are saying Angus cattle are still little dinks that don't come above your waist and were so terrible that it necessitated importation of new breeds from continental Europe? Like you say you can't change history. Breeds change and so do successful cattle breeders.

 

[True Grit Farms]

You realize Simmental are as easy or easier calving than Angus right?

Sell that crap somewhere else. At one time having BW and calving problems was a Simmental trait, same as Charolais. The issues aren't like they once were, but the fact is you can't change history.

So you are saying Angus cattle are still little dinks that don't come above your waist and were so terrible that it necessitated importation of new breeds from continental Europe? Like you say you can't change history. Breeds change and so do successful cattle breeders.

What I'm saying is your full of crap when you make a post like that. I felt like I pointed out with the use of EPD's, Simmental has come along way on BW and calving issues. The problem is so has Angus, it's impossible to get ahead when your always behind. The wide spread use of EPD's and DNA in the cattle business is thanks to the AAA.

 

[Muddy]

Cattlemen99, the calving ease did get improved in some Simmentals, but there are more Simmentals that throws big calves than Angus.