Simmental bull

[simme]

Here is a picture of the dam with her new calf.View attachment 28900

Looks good. That calf had an 84# birth weight. Sire of the calf is low bw, high ce as well as high growth per the epd's. Sire is one of the highest numbered bulls in the simmental breed for both maternal and terminal. All info from the simmental website.

 

[greybeard]

A little bigger picture. I drew a yellow line where the bottom of the sheath area ends.



Would like to see a straighter top line but he's young yet and may even be the way he is standing and turned. BUT, I really like his rear, and the chuck area and he looks good and thick.
He's chunky in the butt for sure. I think he will lengthen out a good bit as he matures.

 

[greybeard]

Seeing the 2nd picture that was posted (front view) I see the dam didn't pass on the full darkness around both eyes with his left eye much less pigmentation than the right one. 'Might' be a potential pink eye or sunlight sensitivity concern if it's a problem for where you are but for me, would (edit=NOT) stop me from using him.

The shoulder width, CE/BW thing... sigh..

Goes back again to just how far the industry is willing to go in search of calving ease/low birth weight and risk losing good beefy meaty heavy weaned calves....

No one gives a a single hoot how much their bw was when the steers are being bid on.

 

[faster horses]

I guess I'm the only one that doesn't care for the bull. His back looks low, his tail head is high coming out of his back. You wouldn't want heifers that had that trait. You are concerned about his sheath. That would be 3 strikes and he's out for me. Not to mention wide in the shoulders.

If in doubt...don't.

 

[Ky hills]

Well it looks like we've bought the bull.
He will be used very light this year, have a couple black SimAngus heifers due this fall that I'd like to have bred to him eventually.
We have been using low BW Angus bulls for a long time, and a few breed average Herefords. Just thinking along similar lines as the calving ease thread.
With one of our bulls throwing 50-60 pound calves and 8 month weights from his barely averaging 500, that's leaving a lot growth off.
I used to have Charolais with BW of mostly over 100 and same age weights of hardly ever under 700, and several well over 800.
@greybeard the way he is standing in the picture does affect it some as he looks some different in person, but you are right in your observations. He isn't as smooth and long. He actually looks more massive and thick in person to me.
It's been a long time since I've seen one with that much rear end. He was the thickest made bull there except for a couple high percentage Simmental, SimAngus that were going to be used in their herd. Those two were pretty thick and well made bulls.
Pinkeye can be a major problem here too, I've had a lot Charolais and Herefords so used to watching for it. Some years have major outbreaks and others just a handful of cases.

 

[Springfieldsimm]

I think he looks like a good bull. We have a bull that has almost identical ce and bw epds and we have calved a couple of heifers from him and only had one easy pull. Most of the heifers had higher ce. We averaged around 80-95# calves out of him.

 

[FlyingLSimmentals]

Guess I'll give my thoughts. Like top of pedigree not so much the bottom all though momma looks ok. Not a fan of his epd's but different herds and programs need different things. Likes: Head, Neck, Rib Depth. Dislikes: Look short in length, high tail head straight back legs, and the low sheath. I'd probably would like him better in person.

 

[kenny thomas]

I heard a statement yesterday that a lot of the low birth weight bulls are just shorter gestation bulls. How much lighter is a calf born 8 days earlier than average vs calves born 5 days later than average. Something to think about.

 

[Davemk]

I heard a statement yesterday that a lot of the low birth weight bulls are just shorter gestation bulls. How much lighter is a calf born 8 days earlier than average vs calves born 5 days later than average. Something to think about.

I don't know the answer to your question but I find it hard to believe that 8 days can make that much difference. Genetics has to be the biggest influence doesn't it? Yes I know genetics can influence gestation time.

 

[faster horses]

I think people tend to forget that some of the BW comes from the dam. Focus is usually on the bull, but there is the dam to consider too.

 

[kenny thomas]

I don't know the answer to your question but I find it hard to believe that 8 days can make that much difference. Genetics has to be the biggest influence doesn't it? Yes I know genetics can influence gestation time.

If i remember correctly it could be as high as 1 lb per day.
Maybe someone with more knowledge on this will speak up.

 

[Named'em Tamed'em]

I think people tend to forget that some of the BW comes from the dam. Focus is usually on the bull, but there is the dam to consider too.

It didn't matter what bull I bred my Limflex cows to, they always dropped 70lb calves .

 

[Travlr]

I heard a statement yesterday that a lot of the low birth weight bulls are just shorter gestation bulls. How much lighter is a calf born 8 days earlier than average vs calves born 5 days later than average. Something to think about.

I know growth rate in the last month is significant... but attributing length of gestation to a bull is, I think, a stretch. On the other hand, the cow having some influence seems more believable.

 

[Silver]

If i remember correctly it could be as high as 1 lb per day.
Maybe someone with more knowledge on this will speak up.

I won't claim to have more knowledge but this is my understanding also.

 

[Lucky_P]

On the 'sheath'... he's a polled bull...they have more issues with 'their junk hanging out'. Along with the polled gene comes a heritable hypoplasia of or total absence of the retractor prepuce and protractor prepuce muscles... the muscles that keep his prepuce pulled up inside his sheath, and control the sphincter that keeps the opening 'closed' are absent or significantly reduced.

Did a double-take on the dam photo... looked just like a cow we raised here some years back; I like her look. Looking back through the pedigree, there are several sires that we used here at one time or another.
EPDs are a tool, and don't always tell the full story, especially on a bull with low accuracy... but there's nothing in his epd profile that would have enticed me to give him a second look. Guarantee you that his bottom end of breed for most categories would have had my wife giving him two thumbs down.
Hope he works for you.

 

[Travlr]

A little bigger picture. I drew a yellow line where the bottom of the sheath area ends.
View attachment 28902


Would like to see a straighter top line but he's young yet and may even be the way he is standing and turned. BUT, I really like his rear, and the chuck area and he looks good and thick.
He's chunky in the butt for sure. I think he will lengthen out a good bit as he matures.

One of the things I like about him is how clean and tight he is in the brisket. There's no waste there at all. I think his high tail set is due to his sway back more than any kind of genetic issue. He has some rump, and that's a bonus, and he has good proportions. If I had 30/50 steers from him that were consistent in weight I'd expect good results at sale time.

 

[gcreekrch]

I heard a statement yesterday that a lot of the low birth weight bulls are just shorter gestation bulls. How much lighter is a calf born 8 days earlier than average vs calves born 5 days later than average. Something to think about.

1.25 to 1.5 lbs per day at that age in the cow.

 

[Ky hills]

Thanks for your response @Lucky_P .
I agree that EPD's are just a tool. I have to admit that when I say the bottom percentile numbers I was disappointed. That said though I personally don't believe EPD's are all that credible except for BW on high accuracy older bulls, a lot of the others are fairly subjective.
I don't know anything about Simmental pedigrees.
My main goal is to gain some growth and volume on calves which I feel needs improving.

 

[Davemk]

1.25 to 1.5 lbs per day at that age in the cow.

So how many days will a calve gain that kind of weight before birth? I had no idea they gained like that right before birth.

 

[simme]

Their weight curve during pregnancy is certainly not linear. 80% of birth weight is gained in the last 90 days. 2/3 of birth weight gained in the last 60 days. Daily rate of gain goes up each day. So expect weight difference for 10 days overdue is more than difference for 10 days early. A calf 2 weeks overdue adds considerable birth weight.

At 60 days bred, the calf will weigh less than an ounce. At 90 days, less than half a pound. At 120 days, it will be the size of a small cat. At 150 days, the size of a large cat. At 180 days, the size of a small dog - about 12 to 15 pounds. Then gets to birth weight (70, 80, 90, 100#) in that last 100 days.

Just seems to me that birth weight is affected by environment/nutrition, growth genetics of sire and dam, and gestation length. Also leads me to believe that a CE bull due to shorter gestation does not sacrifice weaning weight like that of a CE bull due to less growth.