cross_7
Well-known member
jsmyers":wdv3aw2s said:
I betting mycoplasma
I'd go with Resflor Gold (nuflor and banamine)
Sick calves
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I betting mycoplasma
I'd go with Resflor Gold (nuflor and banamine)
So if I've read the history right...
3 weeks ago you purchased 30 head of recently weaned, mixed lot, 300-400 lb calves from 3 sources through the sale barn. They were vaccinated (same day?) with Bovishield Gold. No antibiotic at processing.
2 weeks after that (1 week ago) you pulled two calves and treated with LA200.
2 days later (5 days ago) you repulled those calves and treated with Nuflor/Banamine.
The (same?) calves were next treated (when?) with Draxxin.
One calf (treated or not treated?) died 2 days ago.
Who else died and when? were they treated prior to death?
Have you treated the rest of the group with antibiotics?
What kind of pasture/pen are these calves in? Estimate of bunk space/hd, pen dimensions and head in the pen? Bunk space and square feet per animal are important and will influence disease incidence.
3 calves dead of 30 is a 10% mortality at 21 days on feed.
How many have been treated?
Real quick... no dexamethasone. It's a corticosteroid and does have anti-inflammatory properties but it's also an immunosuppressant and not a good idea for these calves. Banamine is an NSAID and is fine to use, but there's no difference in case fatality with or without banamine.
Draxxin is excellent. Baytril would be another good antibiotic option. Micotil is good too if you're willing to deal with the human health risks (don't inject yourself!). At the end of the day antibiotic choices aren't as important as management of the cattle however.
Implement a moratorium - treatment interval - 3 days is pretty standard. Wait that length of time in between treatments regardless of how the calf/calves look. Doesn't do you any good to treat calves as they're dying and it's a waste of money.
Temp and treat. Normal is about 102F. Some places use cheaper drugs (e.g. LA200) on low/normal temps if they look sick, and the expensive stuff on the hot cattle (over 104 or 105 depending on who you talk to).
Mark all calves (ear tag, hip paint, written record of temp, drug, date, calf ID) that are treated. 3 treatments and generally you should call them a chronic and stop treating. About 50% of your chronics will recover eventually with time and good management. The rest will die or need to be euthanized with about a 30 day lag time between first treatment and death. Chronics are usually <50% of the total deads (but I've seen down to 10-15% on the big well managed yards). On high risk calves it can be 100% or more of deads (e.g. same number of chronics as deads in the group).
Treat and put them back with the group.
First treatment success (not retreated within 14-21 days of first treatment) is typically 75-80% - in other words, 75-80% of the calves you treat the first time will not need to be retreated. 20-25% of the calves will need a second treatment within 14 days and you should watch the pen closely for them. Second treatment success rate should be about 55-60%. Too high and you're pulling too many, too low and you're not treating aggressively enough. High risk calves will typically be on the low end of those numbers (or more), low risk (backgrounded, vaccinated, yearlings, single source) will be on the high end of those numbers. I'm looking through some lots right now and at close out (shipping to slaughter) the range was 47-92% for first treatment success.
First 30 days on feed are the most important but keep a close eye on these guys out to 60 days. I'd walk the pen daily, pull anything with drooping ears, lowered head, not coming up on feed, not alert. You need pictures or videos of sick cattle I can probably find some I have permission to share. Just let me know.
Decent feed at the same time of day, no fluctuations in grain amount, and clean water are all important for these calves. Poor feed or nutritional management can "put all your calves in the hospital."
Most pneumonias start as a viral infection which sets the calves up (mucosal membrane damage) for bacterial invasion. Bacteria in the lungs would be an expected finding. The type of bacteria is pretty much irrelevant unless mycoplasma. If they have abscesses or lungs are adhered to each other or the ribs, the infection has been brewing awhile - that's chronic - either before you purchased or in the 3 weeks since purchase.
These are ultra-high risk calves based on their history at purchase. (Lightweight, multiple source, sale barn origin, not backgrounded, etc.) You were looking at a >10% morbidity (first pull treatment) just with their history. Chances are you'll have a >50% morbidity by the time you're done. Case fatality rate is the number of deads divided by the number of calves treated for the first time - the goal is 5-10%. Too low and you're treating too many, too high and you're not pulling enough. I'd suspect you'll be taking a 20% case fatality by 60-90 days on feed. (50% of 30 = 15, 20% of 15 = 3 dead of treated, plus any "pen deads" that weren't treated.) You've probably got quite a few sick calves in there that have been hiding it for several weeks and that's going to increase the typical numbers.
If you have the facilities for it I'd run the entire group through the chute, treat with Draxxin, wait at least three days (Draxxin usually gets a 7-14 day moratorium but I don't think it's appropriate for these calves) and repull aggressively as needed with Baytril for a second treatment. It's not cheap but is proven to decrease the case fatality rate, pen deads, and chronics. As pricey as calves are now, keeping those extra calves alive will pay for the drugs. My thoughts based on the info I have from you at the moment.
Probably not what you wanted to hear. Let me know if you have questions. I'm a 4th year DVM student expecting to go into feedlot medicine; just finished with 2 weeks on a 38,000 head yard, worked last summer on a 40,000 head yard, and I've rubbed shoulders with a few important people. I'm not ready to play with the big dogs yet, but I think - and the folks who pay me think - I'm fairly savvy. Good luck with the remaining calves, feel free to ask (non-urgent) questions at any point.
3 weeks ago you purchased 30 head of recently weaned, mixed lot, 300-400 lb calves from 3 sources through the sale barn. They were vaccinated (same day?) with Bovishield Gold. No antibiotic at processing.
2 weeks after that (1 week ago) you pulled two calves and treated with LA200.
2 days later (5 days ago) you repulled those calves and treated with Nuflor/Banamine.
The (same?) calves were next treated (when?) with Draxxin.
One calf (treated or not treated?) died 2 days ago.
Who else died and when? were they treated prior to death?
Have you treated the rest of the group with antibiotics?
What kind of pasture/pen are these calves in? Estimate of bunk space/hd, pen dimensions and head in the pen? Bunk space and square feet per animal are important and will influence disease incidence.
3 calves dead of 30 is a 10% mortality at 21 days on feed.
How many have been treated?
Real quick... no dexamethasone. It's a corticosteroid and does have anti-inflammatory properties but it's also an immunosuppressant and not a good idea for these calves. Banamine is an NSAID and is fine to use, but there's no difference in case fatality with or without banamine.
Draxxin is excellent. Baytril would be another good antibiotic option. Micotil is good too if you're willing to deal with the human health risks (don't inject yourself!). At the end of the day antibiotic choices aren't as important as management of the cattle however.
Implement a moratorium - treatment interval - 3 days is pretty standard. Wait that length of time in between treatments regardless of how the calf/calves look. Doesn't do you any good to treat calves as they're dying and it's a waste of money.
Temp and treat. Normal is about 102F. Some places use cheaper drugs (e.g. LA200) on low/normal temps if they look sick, and the expensive stuff on the hot cattle (over 104 or 105 depending on who you talk to).
Mark all calves (ear tag, hip paint, written record of temp, drug, date, calf ID) that are treated. 3 treatments and generally you should call them a chronic and stop treating. About 50% of your chronics will recover eventually with time and good management. The rest will die or need to be euthanized with about a 30 day lag time between first treatment and death. Chronics are usually <50% of the total deads (but I've seen down to 10-15% on the big well managed yards). On high risk calves it can be 100% or more of deads (e.g. same number of chronics as deads in the group).
Treat and put them back with the group.
First treatment success (not retreated within 14-21 days of first treatment) is typically 75-80% - in other words, 75-80% of the calves you treat the first time will not need to be retreated. 20-25% of the calves will need a second treatment within 14 days and you should watch the pen closely for them. Second treatment success rate should be about 55-60%. Too high and you're pulling too many, too low and you're not treating aggressively enough. High risk calves will typically be on the low end of those numbers (or more), low risk (backgrounded, vaccinated, yearlings, single source) will be on the high end of those numbers. I'm looking through some lots right now and at close out (shipping to slaughter) the range was 47-92% for first treatment success.
First 30 days on feed are the most important but keep a close eye on these guys out to 60 days. I'd walk the pen daily, pull anything with drooping ears, lowered head, not coming up on feed, not alert. You need pictures or videos of sick cattle I can probably find some I have permission to share. Just let me know.
Decent feed at the same time of day, no fluctuations in grain amount, and clean water are all important for these calves. Poor feed or nutritional management can "put all your calves in the hospital."
Most pneumonias start as a viral infection which sets the calves up (mucosal membrane damage) for bacterial invasion. Bacteria in the lungs would be an expected finding. The type of bacteria is pretty much irrelevant unless mycoplasma. If they have abscesses or lungs are adhered to each other or the ribs, the infection has been brewing awhile - that's chronic - either before you purchased or in the 3 weeks since purchase.
These are ultra-high risk calves based on their history at purchase. (Lightweight, multiple source, sale barn origin, not backgrounded, etc.) You were looking at a >10% morbidity (first pull treatment) just with their history. Chances are you'll have a >50% morbidity by the time you're done. Case fatality rate is the number of deads divided by the number of calves treated for the first time - the goal is 5-10%. Too low and you're treating too many, too high and you're not pulling enough. I'd suspect you'll be taking a 20% case fatality by 60-90 days on feed. (50% of 30 = 15, 20% of 15 = 3 dead of treated, plus any "pen deads" that weren't treated.) You've probably got quite a few sick calves in there that have been hiding it for several weeks and that's going to increase the typical numbers.
If you have the facilities for it I'd run the entire group through the chute, treat with Draxxin, wait at least three days (Draxxin usually gets a 7-14 day moratorium but I don't think it's appropriate for these calves) and repull aggressively as needed with Baytril for a second treatment. It's not cheap but is proven to decrease the case fatality rate, pen deads, and chronics. As pricey as calves are now, keeping those extra calves alive will pay for the drugs. My thoughts based on the info I have from you at the moment.
Probably not what you wanted to hear. Let me know if you have questions. I'm a 4th year DVM student expecting to go into feedlot medicine; just finished with 2 weeks on a 38,000 head yard, worked last summer on a 40,000 head yard, and I've rubbed shoulders with a few important people. I'm not ready to play with the big dogs yet, but I think - and the folks who pay me think - I'm fairly savvy. Good luck with the remaining calves, feel free to ask (non-urgent) questions at any point.
cross_7
Well-known member
milkmaid":3lcdavjn said:
You're as handy as a pocket on a shirt. That's very informative and I agree with most of and it's not my nature to agree with folks.
Seriously that is very good info
branguscowgirl
Well-known member
Sorry cross. I was not ignoring your question, I had not read it yet.cross_7":3sini741 said:
I think that you are asking how a culture and sensitivity would be of benefit?
Because we are developing resistance to antibiotics everyday. In humans (as with cattle,) when you grow out a specimen you know exactly what it is sensitive to. Methicillin resistant staph is a perfect example. We successfully treated staph for many years. Then it changed form enough causing it to be resistant to current drugs. New drugs had to be developed for MRSA. The best drug for MRSA is Vancomycin. Well now it has changed form again, VRSA! (Vancomycin resistant staph.)
It Will be the same for mycoplasma eventually also. This is why I said it is most helpful to know what it is sensitive to to avoid treating with drugs that no longer work.
One more thought... sounds like you've got a wreck and you're about 3 weeks too late. The time for advice that would drastically change the results was the day you bought the calves. Right now you have what you have; you can likely decrease deaths and chronics by mass treating the calves, but otherwise you're just going to have to watch this play out. You've probably got another 2-3 weeks of frustration and then if they're managed well (pen space, nutrition, etc) they should line out and do okay the rest of the time you own them. In other words - this will resolve eventually regardless of what you do, but there's some options that will result in better results (less deads, chronics) than others.
cross_7
Well-known member
MM what would your recommended receiving protocol be on say this set of sale barn purchased calves from an unknown source and background ?
Workinonit Farm
Well-known member
milkmaid, very thorough and informational post! Thank you for taking the time to post all that info, its very helpful.
Receiving protocol... I'll keep it pretty general. I've signed some interesting confidentiality paperwork that makes it so I can have opinions but can't talk about them. Still, most of the differences between brands or combinations are small percentage points that are financially important in large groups, not so much in a little 30-head group.
The important points on a high risk group of calves:
Modified-live BVD/IBR vaccination - e.g. Bovishield Gold, Triangle 5, Titanium, Pyramid, etc.
Clostridial vaccination - C&D and/or 7-way or 8-way
Tetanus vaccination if banding
+/- Pasturella/Mannhaemia vaccination - e.g. NuPlura, Presponse
+/- Intranasal BVD/IBR vaccine - e.g. Inforce3
Deworming - oral, injectable and/or pour-on e.g. Valbazen, Dectomax, Ivomec Plus, etc. Most important parasites to watch for are probably haemonchus, lungworms, and flukes.
Castration - bulls have twice the morbidity (sickness) of steers, get rid of those testicles ASAP.
Dehorning - not really important. If you do dehorn, either tip the horns short enough they don't bleed, or take the entire horn off and appropriately pull vessels or cauterize. Anemia is a major stressor on the new calves too; letting them lose a few liters of blood (remember there's antibodies in that blood too!) and then expecting them to fight off disease is not a smart management strategy.
Antibiotics - mass medication (metaphylaxis) will cut the morbidity in half and mortality by about 40-50%. I hear the comments about antibiotic resistance... but in ultra high risk lots it's almost a welfare issue if you don't. Some people temp and treat - temp everything, treat any animals over 104F at arrival. Some just treat every animal. Implement a moratorium and leave the calves alone. Depending on the antibiotic, most people assign 7-14 days for Draxxin, 5 for Micotil, 3-5 for Nuflor, 3 for LA200, 3-5 for Baytril, 3-5 for Excede, etc. Check the pens daily and pull calves at the end of the moratorium and retreat as needed.
+/- minerals and vitamins - e.g. Multimin, Bo-Se, Mu-Se, Vit A/D/E
Process them as soon as possible after arrival, <24 hours preferably. Calves shipped long distances (e.g. 12, 18, 30 hours) will need a certain amount of time to rest and drink; this is not as big a concern on cattle coming a short distance from a local sale barn. Do keep in mind that if they've been at the sale all day without water they should get a few minutes to drink before getting processed.
Clean water available, let the tank/waterer overflow if necessary to show them where to drink.
Handle them right at processing - I've nothing against hotshots but let's use them intelligently. Cattle bunched up in the corner, bouncing off fences, hitting the headgate at top speed, etc isn't necessary and unneeded stress on the animals. Any monkey can make cattle move fast, it takes skill to run them smooth and quiet through the facilities.
Feed available with a significant amount of hay for rumen function. (In feedlots our starting ration is 40-60% hay, backgrounders are going to feed far more hay.) Get them up to eating 2% of their body weight in good quality feed as quickly as possible. It'll usually take 1-2 weeks but the sooner it happens the better off the calves are. In the feedlot they'll eat 3.5-4.5% of their body weight after a few weeks in the yard, esp light weight calves.
Manage feed fluctuations - not a total amount per animal but a percentage of the diet. If you're feeding, say, 15 lbs of hay and 5 lbs of corn, that corn makes up 25% of their diet. If a calf eats 12 lbs of hay and 3 lbs of corn they're still getting the same percentages. Down on intake but still same percent. If they eat 10lbs of corn and 10 lbs of hay, that's 50% of the diet and now the rumen bugs are going to get screwed up. On a feedlot we'd mix the ration so they can't sort. At least put out grain in a way that calves aren't gorging themselves or significantly changing the % of their diet on a daily basis.
Adequate pen space and bunk space. Need about 18" per animal if everyone is at the bunk at once, I think. Most people will have feed available at all times and give them about 10" of space on calves. Pen space, about 200-300 square feet per animal (more is fine too). For 30 head that's about 9000 square feet or a 90 x 100 ft pen minimum.
Does that answer your question Cross?
Still, most of the differences between brands or combinations are small percentage points that are financially important in large groups, not so much in a little 30-head group.The important points on a high risk group of calves:
Modified-live BVD/IBR vaccination - e.g. Bovishield Gold, Triangle 5, Titanium, Pyramid, etc.
Clostridial vaccination - C&D and/or 7-way or 8-way
Tetanus vaccination if banding
+/- Pasturella/Mannhaemia vaccination - e.g. NuPlura, Presponse
+/- Intranasal BVD/IBR vaccine - e.g. Inforce3
Deworming - oral, injectable and/or pour-on e.g. Valbazen, Dectomax, Ivomec Plus, etc. Most important parasites to watch for are probably haemonchus, lungworms, and flukes.
Castration - bulls have twice the morbidity (sickness) of steers, get rid of those testicles ASAP.
Dehorning - not really important. If you do dehorn, either tip the horns short enough they don't bleed, or take the entire horn off and appropriately pull vessels or cauterize. Anemia is a major stressor on the new calves too; letting them lose a few liters of blood (remember there's antibodies in that blood too!) and then expecting them to fight off disease is not a smart management strategy.
Antibiotics - mass medication (metaphylaxis) will cut the morbidity in half and mortality by about 40-50%. I hear the comments about antibiotic resistance... but in ultra high risk lots it's almost a welfare issue if you don't. Some people temp and treat - temp everything, treat any animals over 104F at arrival. Some just treat every animal. Implement a moratorium and leave the calves alone. Depending on the antibiotic, most people assign 7-14 days for Draxxin, 5 for Micotil, 3-5 for Nuflor, 3 for LA200, 3-5 for Baytril, 3-5 for Excede, etc. Check the pens daily and pull calves at the end of the moratorium and retreat as needed.
+/- minerals and vitamins - e.g. Multimin, Bo-Se, Mu-Se, Vit A/D/E
Process them as soon as possible after arrival, <24 hours preferably. Calves shipped long distances (e.g. 12, 18, 30 hours) will need a certain amount of time to rest and drink; this is not as big a concern on cattle coming a short distance from a local sale barn. Do keep in mind that if they've been at the sale all day without water they should get a few minutes to drink before getting processed.
Clean water available, let the tank/waterer overflow if necessary to show them where to drink.
Handle them right at processing - I've nothing against hotshots but let's use them intelligently. Cattle bunched up in the corner, bouncing off fences, hitting the headgate at top speed, etc isn't necessary and unneeded stress on the animals. Any monkey can make cattle move fast, it takes skill to run them smooth and quiet through the facilities.
Feed available with a significant amount of hay for rumen function. (In feedlots our starting ration is 40-60% hay, backgrounders are going to feed far more hay.) Get them up to eating 2% of their body weight in good quality feed as quickly as possible. It'll usually take 1-2 weeks but the sooner it happens the better off the calves are. In the feedlot they'll eat 3.5-4.5% of their body weight after a few weeks in the yard, esp light weight calves.
Manage feed fluctuations - not a total amount per animal but a percentage of the diet. If you're feeding, say, 15 lbs of hay and 5 lbs of corn, that corn makes up 25% of their diet. If a calf eats 12 lbs of hay and 3 lbs of corn they're still getting the same percentages. Down on intake but still same percent. If they eat 10lbs of corn and 10 lbs of hay, that's 50% of the diet and now the rumen bugs are going to get screwed up. On a feedlot we'd mix the ration so they can't sort. At least put out grain in a way that calves aren't gorging themselves or significantly changing the % of their diet on a daily basis.
Adequate pen space and bunk space. Need about 18" per animal if everyone is at the bunk at once, I think. Most people will have feed available at all times and give them about 10" of space on calves. Pen space, about 200-300 square feet per animal (more is fine too). For 30 head that's about 9000 square feet or a 90 x 100 ft pen minimum.
Does that answer your question Cross?
cross_7
Well-known member
Yes I really appreciate you taking the time to type all that out
On the metaphylaxis do you medicate when processing or do you wait a few days
I hear some say that it takes a few days for the sale barn bugs to "incubate" and if you treat too soon they'll still get sick
Thanks again
No, treat at processing. If it were possible we'd give antibiotics as they load on the truck at their home ranch.
There are some antibiotics that people say will delay but not prevent morbidity. In general though, assume that metaphylaxis at processing will decrease BRD (bovine respiratory disease) morbidity (and therefore mortality) by half for the time you own them.
You're welcome - and Workinonit - glad you both found it helpful/informative. I enjoy talking about feedlot and herd medicine, feel free to ask questions.
There are some antibiotics that people say will delay but not prevent morbidity. In general though, assume that metaphylaxis at processing will decrease BRD (bovine respiratory disease) morbidity (and therefore mortality) by half for the time you own them.
You're welcome - and Workinonit - glad you both found it helpful/informative. I enjoy talking about feedlot and herd medicine, feel free to ask questions.
