Risk vs Reward, does calf size really matter?

[highgrit]

Inyati and Nesikep threads got me thinking about high birth weights. I can't see where a high birth weight is worth the risk. And what's it really matter as long as you end up with a 500 lb calf at weaning.
Average Prices in Georgia last week for steers number 1's.
You can find this info by Google, Georgia cattleprices.
Avg wt. Avg price. Total value
464. 300. 1392.00
512. 279. 1428.48

721. 209. 1470.84
766. 194. 1486.04
High birth weights and weaning weights don't equal the reward for the risks involved. IMO
I'm not working for the feed and AI companies. Please tell me what I'm missing?

 

[dun]

Define high BW

 

[millstreaminn]

I use calving ease bulls almost exclusively on my angus cows and heifers. I love to have have those 60 lb calves that slip right and and start nursing. Cows jump right up and start taking care of the calf too. I'm from a holstein dairy background and don't miss the days of 120 pound bull calves with heads the size of a five gallon buckets.

 

[Toad]

I use calving ease bulls almost exclusively on my angus cows and heifers. I love to have have those 60 lb calves that slip right and and start nursing. Cows jump right up and start taking care of the calf too. I'm from a holstein dairy background and don't miss the days of 120 pound bull calves with heads the size of a five gallon buckets.

I sorta have to agree, the current market is really telling us the most important thing is to have a live one and the least important thing is ww. I had a guy tell me the other day at the bull sale something that really made me think. He said as long as the calf is alive he can always creep it cheaply if the market changes and larger calves are much higher. If he doesn't use a lbw bull and loses a couple he doesn't have any options. Made complete sense to me.

 

[AllForage]

Inyati and Nesikep threads got me thinking about high birth weights. I can't see where a high birth weight is worth the risk. And what's it really matter as long as you end up with a 500 lb calf at weaning.
Average Prices in Georgia last week for steers number 1's.
You can find this info by Google, Georgia cattleprices.
Avg wt. Avg price. Total value
464. 300. 1392.00
512. 279. 1428.48

721. 209. 1470.84
766. 194. 1486.04
High birth weights and weaning weights don't equal the reward for the risks involved. IMO
I'm not working for the feed and AI companies. Please tell me what I'm missing?

I don't think you are missing anything. Live calves are the most important step to profitability.

 

[retro]

Agreed AllForage.. what good is a dead cow or one with a 500. zipper on her left side that won't bred back.

 

[highgrit]

Dun, for us a 90lb calf would be huge. And if we had 2-3 calves that weighted 90+ the bull would be headed down the road. We're only a small operation, and I shouldn't say anything. But in the last 5 years we've only lost 1 heifer and 4 calves. And we haven't had to pull a calf yet, but I'm sure that day will come. And out of the 4 calves we lost, one of the calves was deformed, and one was a twin. And those figures are based on just over 250 calves.
I guess my real question is, WHY would you want a large or high birthweight calf?

 

[Andyva]

It's hard to base your whole cattle program on the market trends for one year. When the prices drop, your less than five weights will become less profitable. But as long as you can get 500 pounders you will do OK. I like to concentrate on calving ease cows more than calving ease bulls. But always, the calf with feet pointing down is better than the one with feet pointing up no matter how much he weighs.

 

[retro]

Define high BW

We all know there are different answers to that question , It all depends on your goals and the type of cows you have right ? That been said I personal have Angus cows that weigh about 1400 lbs. and frame score about 6.2 big birth weight for my goals is 90lb but i get some that throw 100 lb calves. I don't like to see it . the end result is that calf doesn't usually out out perform the 80 lb calves to warrant the extra risk or cost involved. That Is JMO . Some else can deal with the higher BW Bulls after all there is a market for them just not in my operation. ....I know the thread where Highgrit came up with this question....AGAIN JMO but the way the statement" Bigger is Better" was posted was not well thought out in that thread before being posted....But again JMO before somebody gets their panties in a bunch... :tiphat:

 

[Katpau]

Out of the 34 calves born here in the last few weeks, 11 have weighed over 90 pounds. Out of those 11, 5 weighed over 104 pounds and one was 119 pounds. None were assisted at birth, and only one required some help nursing a few days later. That may or may not have been related to birth weight, and it is the first time I have ever had a big calf act dumb. It was more likely related to the shortness of the cow, the height of the calf, and some conveniently located dry nipples. I weigh every calf born here with an actual scale. I am not estimating. I would bet good money that many of the 70 to 75 pound calves most people estimate they have, are actually 10 pounds or more heavier than that. An 80 pound calf next to an average size cow of about 1400 pounds, looks really tiny. I can't count how many times I have looked at a newborn next to a cow and guessed he did not weigh 70 pounds, only to pick him up with a scale and find he was over 80. I have many calves over 100 pounds each year and I cannot remember the last time I assisted one due to size. The calves I lose are the little ones that weigh less than 75 pounds. They are very susceptible to the weather. It is rainy and cool here at night, and hypothermia will set in fast if you have a tiny calf and an inexperienced heifer that takes a bit too long to start licking her calf. In my opinion the numbers you want to look at when selecting a heifer bull are CED. Avoid extremely low CED's, but get as much birth weight as you can with that CED. I find that calves that grew slow In utero, tend to continue that pace latter. It is pretty common in my operation for the small calves at birth to be 50 to 100 pounds behind the more average size calves at weaning.

 

[Bez__]

Inyati and Nesikep threads got me thinking about high birth weights. I can't see where a high birth weight is worth the risk. And what's it really matter as long as you end up with a 500 lb calf at weaning.
Average Prices in Georgia last week for steers number 1's.
You can find this info by Google, Georgia cattleprices.
Avg wt. Avg price. Total value
464. 300. 1392.00
512. 279. 1428.48

721. 209. 1470.84
766. 194. 1486.04
High birth weights and weaning weights don't equal the reward for the risks involved. IMO
I'm not working for the feed and AI companies. Please tell me what I'm missing?

I am betting that while some folks weigh their calves, more people do not than do.

If you are dropping about 20 or more a day in a 160 acre field it is not likely happening unless you have lots of help and lots of time.

I am also betting that if they did weigh them all they would be surprised at the actual sizes.

100 pounds might sound big but it is not a big calf. It might be to some - but those buggers when they are all dried off are heavier than they look.

Small calves might be the desired for some folks - but it also depends upon where they are born, the time of year and the cow size.

And there are always those who are born at one end or the other of the weight spectrum. It happens.

In the end, alive and sucking is the true desired animal.

Cheers

 

[Tim/South]

At some point the calf's frame comes into the equation. You do not want to produce a small framed calf that will mature at 900 lb.
I personally use registered medium birth rate bulls.
A person can take a medium framed cow and breed for hybrid vigor and make a baby who grows like it was on steroids.

 

[dun]

I like them a bit on either siade of 70 lbs from heifers. Hvae had them into the 90s from heifers with no real issues other then the heifer not having enough milk to keep it growing as well as I would like. 80-85 lbs from cows is the target, but occasioanly will get one closer to 100, still no real problems. Had one 84 lb out of a cow that managed to pass it with one leg folded back. Broke a bunch of ribs on the side the leg was back, calf only lived a couple of days then had blood pouring out of it's nose from a rib sticking the lungs.

 

[retro]

At some point the calf's frame comes into the equation. You do not want to produce a small framed calf that will mature at 900 lb.
I personally use registered medium birth rate bulls.
A person can take a medium framed cow and breed for hybrid vigor and make a baby who grows like it was on steroids.

that is were the WW Epds come into play, and the YW also. I have read from the previous posts about weighing newbie calves . I weigh every calf born. I also use bloodlines that are proven. I calve 150 cows a yr in 70 days , so I make the time. I don't play the guess and go game here. that is part of the management that goes with the job. Befor I made this post I checked my BW avg. so far this yr on 93 calves born the avg. is 82 lbs with the lowest being 68 lbs and the heaviest being 93 lb. Again this is what works the best for me.

 

[Nesikep]

I don't have a goal of high birthweights, but I agree with Andyva, I pay close attention to maternal calving ease. Selecting bulls is also critical.. I don't like blockheads, long bodies are good, if you compare the calving difficulty of a Herf sired calf to that of a Saler, I'm sure you'll find the cow can deliver a much bigger Saler calf with the same effort, they're like wet noodles.

Since I've been back on the farm, I've had a total of 144 calves born, 4 were DOA (a pair of miscarried twins, one malpresented twin, and a malpresented single). There's been 3 hard pulls, all 3 on heifers.
The end result? 0% loss due to birthweights.

The first heifer of the year is a month old, 110 lb birthweight, and has probably darned close to doubled her weight now.

I think that regardless of the curve-benders, there will ALWAYS be a positive correlation between birthweight and weaning weight.. If you're aiming to have 60 lb calves from cows that could perfectly handle 100, there's money left on the table.

The calf I had born last night was 100-110, up and sucking in a half an hour, it's very rare I have one take over an hour.
I wouldn't mind if my heifers had 70 lb'ers though, just nothing I do seems to change the birthweights here.

 

[Supa Dexta]

I watched 2 being born as I fed this morning, both heifer calves, 106 and 114 lbs. The 106 was out, up and sucking by the time I came back with another load of bales (20mins round trip likely) And the 114lb'er, I watched the cow lay down, push it out some ( calfs front half) and then she stood back up to sniff around and see if it was out yet.. As she was turning around the calf literally fell out.

Eagles and crows are my problems these days.. Not birthweights. Avg BW so far this season is 98.6, take 1st calf heifers out of the equation and its 106.

 

[nobull82]

I think that regardless of the curve-benders, there will ALWAYS be a positive correlation between birthweight and weaning weight.. If you're aiming to have 60 lb calves from cows that could perfectly handle 100, there's money left on the table.

X2

 

[Lucky_P]

I'm with Bez on this one. Maybe some of you folks on here actually weigh them, but I'd hazard a guess that most folks just eyeball 'em and say..."That one looks like it's 60#, 84#, 120# or whatever."
Generally, the only ones I've ever weighed were inordinately large (for my operation) dead ones. In general, I don't care what they weigh, so long as they get here alive. I use fairly high CE bulls on my heifers; not so much so on the mature cows... still not going for known 'cow-kilers', but I don't want a mature cow presenting me with a 60lb calf.
Did a progeny-test breeding trial for a breeder last year - part of the deal was collecting birthweights. Avg for both bulls used was about 96.6, with the largest being 107#, smallest a 69# heifer, twin to an 84# bull. 3-10 yr old cows. Only one I had to assist was one with an elbow back, hung on the pelvis; once I got his leg forward, he came right on out.
I don't care if I never weigh another calf.

 

[Supa Dexta]

I will get away from weighing mine over time.. I'm just at a point where I want to gather us much info as I can for a few more years as I continue to expand. Once I'm at the point I want to be, I'll just let things happen as they will. Just not sure when or what that point is yet. I'm tagging and banding anyways, so its only 30 more seconds to set the scale down and pick up the calf. Helps me get in shape for tossin' seed bags shortly anyways.

 

[randiliana]

I'm also with Bez, Katpau, Nesikep.....etc....

We weigh every calf, every year...that will be about 160 calves this year....I know how hard it is to guess the weight when you weigh every calf...I can't imagine how anyone could be correct without ever weighing any... A 60 lb calf is pretty tiny, and a 100 lb calf doesn't look as big as you might think it does.

Big Birth Weights really don't bother me too much, except with first calf heifers. It is pretty rare to have to help out a cow because of a big BW. I believe that this year we have helped one cow (a 3 year old) because the calf was too big. Have had a couple of malpresentations though...We have had quite a bunch of big calves this year, we've had 35/115 that are over 100 lbs, and 5 of them over 115 lbs...our average is about 10 lbs heavier than last year. Of the 3 bulls that we had calves off of both this and last year, one is running about 10 lbs heavier, one about 5 lbs and the last is about 5 lbs lighter.... Not sure why the calves are so much heavier, but they have been born without assistance and they are up and going very quickly so I'm not too concerned about it.

IMO, BW is directly related to WW (and I have the data to back that up) in 99% of calves. Small BW generally means less WW. And small BW calves tend to have a harder time when it is cold out as well.