Risk vs Reward, does calf size really matter?

[strihafarms]

And as I mentioned before - you can also get a cheaper bull in that sense, since everyone is chasing the low BW numbers and competing for those bulls.

I can attest to this. I went to a bull sale last Friday that had two full brothers with really good calving ease epds. The one with a 76# birthweight brought $12000. I bought his full brother for $5750. He had an 89# BW.

 

[ANAZAZI]

Well, with some of the outcrossing that goes on you never know. If your going to cross on Holstein you might as well cross on a good one. I was using an exaggeration to illustrate reality, by the way. It's a southern thing.

If you want reality I will give it to you: Calving on spring grass is far easier than calving three months prior to spring grass. If the cow spends say the last two months of the pregnancy in cold temperature the birthweight goes way up compared to calving in green grass and higher temps.

 

[Andyva]

Your reality and my data contradict each other. My May calves are heavier than my February calves. Out of the same sire and dam. They get lighter again when the early grass peters out, then they get bigger again as the fall grass comes in and they ride that wave until mid winter. Optimum calving start for me is late February to mid March. That puts calves hitting six weeks old with fresh grass in front of them. Less udder problems, less high birth weights. If you have barn kept play cattle with free choice grain your data may differ.

 

[ANAZAZI]

Your reality and my data contradict each other. My May calves are heavier than my February calves. Out of the same sire and dam. They get lighter again when the early grass peters out, then they get bigger again as the fall grass comes in and they ride that wave until mid winter. Optimum calving start for me is late February to mid March. That puts calves hitting six weeks old with fresh grass in front of them. Less udder problems, less high birth weights. If you have barn kept play cattle with free choice grain your data may differ.

I agree that your data contradicts reality. My cows does for example not calve both in february and may; they will decisively choose either. Neither will they calve three months earlier or three months later, ever. Optimum calving time may be slightly before maximum spring grass, but calf weights will be greater in cold weather than in clement conditions.

 

[Nesikep]

bball.. I've had 4 hard pulls out of those 150, a few assists, and 2 malpresentations.

As for calving weights, both the cows (the Feb and May calver) are gestating through the coldest part of the winter, just at different points.. I think if you compared spring and fall calving you could make a better correlation. I calf 10 weeks before grass, which give the grass time to grow otherwise they eat it off so fast it never gets growing.

 

[AllForage]

Andyva,

Here are a few things to consider. If you are doing the grassfed thing perhaps you should be calving at 6-8" of grass. To help your big calf issue you say happens, leave your calves on the cow for 8-10 months. This should also help your winter melting problems. Then calves can wean onto grass or good hay for a month before grazing. Calves will be a tad smaller going into winter but that helps reduce feed costs. Synch up with nature and things will fall into place. I have never experienced udder issues due to grass. My cows seem to have X amount of milk. They don't respond like dairy cows and produce more. You may want to again look into your maternal genetic base to moderate that. Finishing grass fed beeves in 20-24 does not require high octane cattle. Moderate all the way through helps in many ways during the cyclical parts of the seasons. I think if one is going to do grass fed whether partly or full bore you should structure the entire operation to its success.

Ryan

 

[Andyva]

While grass fed freezer beef is part of my operation, the majority of my operation is feeder calf production. In the past, I've often picked a segment of my feeder calf crop as candidates for freezer beef. Some grain finished (last 45 days), and some grass finished. I usually pick based on things like market acceptance, for example, keeping red calves and trucking black ones. The melting problem I've had recently appears to be related to some particular herd sires, and I'm taking care of that problem. As far as comparing cows that calve in February to those that calve in May, while it is preferable to not calve a cow three months later than normal, sometimes, if you raise cattle long enough, you will find that stuff happens. So if you take a bull off of a herd and put him with a different herd, and then you put a new bull on that herd, and then he gets struck by lightning about a week after you put him in, while you are on vacation, and you finally bring the original bull back, after finding a replacement from the other herd, you will find that it is very possible to calve a cow bred to the same bull in February one year and May the next. Not optimal, but it can happen. Through the use of pencil and paper, you can compare notes on things like that. In my area, for my cattle, calves will be smaller in the late winter compared to calves that come in late spring, this based on much observation, and in some cases, actual records. Cattle here are at their lowest nutritional point when the grass starts greening up. They will starve themselves on spring grass and leave hay laying, if you let them. In the dead of winter, they are still eating hay good, so they are a little better shape. And another thing, if I had to wait on my grass to get 8 inches high to start calving, that would be a problem, most of my pasture is bluegrass and white clover it gets 4 inches high and stays there, but it gets there really quick. We like to calve in March and April. Doesn't always work out that way, but that is what we shoot for.It might not work out the same for everyone, but we have had cattle on this place for about 300 years, and this is how we do it.

 

[AllForage]

Good enough, can't argue with 300 years

 

[bball]

bball.. I've had 4 hard pulls out of those 150, a few assists, and 2 malpresentations

Pretty impressive imho. I had noticed we had an increase over last few years with malpresentaions (simm-ang bull that really threw some hefty calves). Lotsa 1 or 2 legs down or back, and a few breech. Almost like the calfs were too big to get turned around or presented the right way. I blame the calves (bull by default) because the cows had not had issues prior...sent the bull to sale. this year only had one malpresentation thus far on a second calfer; was a breech that we caught early and pulled and managed to save. Thanks for the feedback. Solid numbers, Congrats :nod:

 

[Nesikep]

Here I go opening my big mouth... but I have never had a malpresentation of just one leg back, or both front legs.. I did have one head back (25 years ago), and 2 breech births.. one was a twin about 3 years ago, the other was a single 4 years ago.. I've had a number of them hind legs first but correct, they're more likely to need some help as the hind legs don't seem to stimulate the contractions like the head does.
I've been trying to see if there is some heredity or repeatability in malpresentations, and there seems to be a little of both, though I'm not a statistician.. I have many (nearly all) cows that have had only had normal, forward presentations, but also have a couple that have had more than 1 calf hind legs first, and perhaps a sister/daughter that did it too. Not all my births are observed, so there might be a whole bunch that I haven't seen, and who can tell after the fact?