Replacement females???

[greybeard]

I've never seen a good cow that needed more than a poor cow.

Well, I have. But that says nothing bad about the good cow. The bad cow needs (pick what ever is applicable and there are more that won't be listed)
Help calving, multiple heats to breed back, more doctoring than the good cow, the same or more forage to prevent going from a bad cow to a horrible cow, more frequent deworming, more trouble penning and working, etc etc.
Really, the bad cow only needs two things. A trailer floor under her hooves and a good cow to replace her with.

 

[greybeard]

Those bought heifers and bought bred heifers didn't just fall off the heifer tree one sunny afternoon.

Somebody(s) somewhere, is spending the time and $$ to raise these heifers that others are buying. Those replacement 'stockpersons' are doing one of 2 things.
1.Making $$$$
or
2. going broke
and from what I've seen here at CT over the years, from the herd pictures, sales tickets, and personal testimony, I'd say it's the former.

 

[salebarn junkie]

my question is for the I raise my own heifers crowd. what's your percentage of heifers that are still in your herd at 4 years old? that's no second chances or dropping back a season. I don't have a dog in this hunt I buy mid to old cows I hate heifers and the problems they bring.
just curious what people's results are.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

I'll pose the same question to the bought replacment heifer group. How many are still in the herd after 4 years? No second chances.

Why would that % be different with purchased heifers vs retained?

 

[Ebenezer]

Not me...

I want an above average calf weaned every 12 months...

If average weaning weight for you is 500lbs, I want to wean 501lbs hahaha.

I think the researchers quote something like "Fertility is 10X more profitable than growth". To oversize or to select cows that overproduce in your management or environment is not profitable.

 

[Ebenezer]

my question is for the I raise my own heifers crowd. what's your percentage of heifers that are still in your herd at 4 years old? that's no second chances or dropping back a season. I don't have a dog in this hunt I buy mid to old cows I hate heifers and the problems they bring.
just curious what people's results are.

Good question. Not all are held to be replacements and are marketed through the year as culls. Some go as late breds for the dollar bump. It's not one size fits all.

 

[Ebenezer]

I'll pose the same question to the bought replacment heifer group. How many are still in the herd after 4 years? No second chances.

Why would that % be different with purchased heifers vs retained?

Just my experience - 15% of the bought in animals will stay for the duration and function properly. This is mainly from buying whole herds and not sale barn stuff.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

I think the researchers quote something like "Fertility is 10X more profitable than growth". To oversize or to select cows that overproduce in your management or environment is not profitable.

If I first select for fertility (I don't care how nice a cow is or how big a calf she weans if she doesn't do it every 12 months she's gone), then why shouldn't one of my replacement criteria be for size?

 

[Ebenezer]

If I first select for fertility (I don't care how nice a cow is or how big a calf she weans if she doesn't do it every 12 months she's gone), then why shouldn't one of my replacement criteria be for size?

Not sure that I understand the question.

Adequate frame score of a market calf is a profitable selection. Pure pounds at weaning to pick the heaviest heifers was proven out in the old BHIA days of selecting only for weaning weights for me - got a lot of fatter heifers and more milk: too much. Early calved heifers are the first choice for me. The next thing is the dam's record. Weaning weights are better in the 95 to100% range to hold to the type and some of the below 100% are coming from aged cows which needs to be considered. To always select for high growth is a self fulfilling prophesy: you get larger cattle and more milk.

The question for you (I cannot answer for you) is: if the heifers that are average can produce the desirable steers in the frame and weight that you want and calve in the 60 day season (or less) every year?

This whole discussion faults on the lack of adequate herd descriptions and stated goals. I breed for more of a do-all herd: great mothers, good sale barn results, useful replacement bulls, sale bulls... Others (the majority) go for the terminal types in high growth bulls and whatever cows. Larry Leonhardt thought in terms of paternal and maternal herds and selling all crosses of the two as feedlot calves. He saw the maternal herd producing great females and bulls used to make more great females. I cannot do that. I am one herd and so I balance the two. If I have to put my finger on the scales, it goes to the maternal side: great mother, longevity, early breeder once a year even if most calves are herd average. Herd average is not a sellout - it fits the environment.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

The question for you (I cannot answer for you) is: if the heifers that are average can produce the desirable steers in the frame and weight that you want and calve in the 60 day season (or less) every year?

My average retained heifers can produce a desirable steer, and calve in a 45 season.

But my above average retained heifers can produce a desirable steer that is heavier and calves out in the same 45 day window.

So again why would I shoot for average, when I can aim higher?

 

[Heronfish]

Don't play the victim now. You and your partner started this by telling the rest of us we cant produce a better animal than we can buy with out knowing jack squat about any ones operations. That is the defintion of arrogance. This thread was real civil right up until that point. You are in Canada and Im in STX. You dont know squat about how to operate here.

It doesnt matter where you operate.
It takes time and money to breed maternal and you're giving up pounds of beef to do so. This isn't a point of argument.
You cannot have the best steers on sale day and good efficient feminine heifers at the same time. There are trade offs.

I've done the math here. I pay good money for replacement cows and it still costs me less than keeping heifers. And the quality is as good or better than what I can make.

Surely there is good money to be made making females for sale. And I'm glad guys are doing it. Between them and dispersal there are always enough to buy I don't need a separate pasture of my own.

 

[Travlr]

It doesn't matter where you operate.
It takes time and money to... and you're giving up... This isn't a point of argument.
You cannot have...

Looks like you are stuck in a rut by believing in your own methods at the expense of considering options.

 

[Heronfish]

Through all of this, I can tell you what the wrong answer is. Because I saw it at the family farm.
That is to take a good herd of maternal cows, breed them terminal and keep the best heifers. Within a few years, you have a herd of cows that are too big, your stocking rate is down, your feed bill is up and everything you spent time building is gone.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

That was the wrong answer for that particular family farm.

Everyones operation is operating within different parameter.

What isn't profitable for guy A in location A could be very lucrative for guy B in location B.

 

[gcreekrch]

my question is for the I raise my own heifers crowd. what's your percentage of heifers that are still in your herd at 4 years old? that's no second chances or dropping back a season. I don't have a dog in this hunt I buy mid to old cows I hate heifers and the problems they bring.
just curious what people's results are.

We calve 130 to 150 heifers on average. To most operators standards our heifers would be considered on the small side. As yearlings they are with bulls for 30 to 42 days, no longer. After a 30 day season last year 22% were open. We can expect another 15 to 20% open after they have weaned their first calf and the cutoff is at 45 days from bulls being out. Many of these opens will be the heavier milking/harder doing types.
As second calvers the open rate drops to 5 to 7% which is herd average.
We manage for the middle, thankful for the overachieving cows and no mercy on those who don't want to work for what we pay them.
Most years we have a group of 8 to 10 year olds to sell to guys that buy their replacements and have better feed than we do to keep an older cow in production.

 

[Travlr]

We calve 130 to 150 heifers on average. To most operators standards our heifers would be considered on the small side. As yearlings they are with bulls for 30 to 42 days, no longer. After a 30 day season last year 22% were open.

That 22% is high... except when you consider it's only 30 days. That's giving some of them only one cycle to get bred. I was inclined to cull brutally but at least gave them two chances with natural breeding. The first calf heifers breeding back seems low, too, at 15-20% not bred with the 45 day window.

Any ideas on why those numbers? Any efforts made to improve them, or are you satisfied that they work for you to weed out the weaker animals?

 

[greybeard]

We calve 130 to 150 heifers on average. To most operators standards our heifers would be considered on the small side. As yearlings they are with bulls for 30 to 42 days, no longer. After a 30 day season last year 22% were open. We can expect another 15 to 20% open after they have weaned their first calf and the cutoff is at 45 days from bulls being out. Many of these opens will be the heavier milking/harder doing types.
As second calvers the open rate drops to 5 to 7% which is herd average.
We manage for the middle, thankful for the overachieving cows and no mercy on those who don't want to work for what we pay them.
Most years we have a group of 8 to 10 year olds to sell to guys that buy their replacements and have better feed than we do to keep an older cow in production.

Does your hard (and maybe long) winters play a part in 20%-22% open rate for yearling heifers?

 

[Silver]

Does your hard (and maybe long) winters play a part in 20%-22% open rate for yearling heifers?

When you breed in 'pastures' that are swamps, forests, thousands of acres and full of predators like some of us up north do 22% is rather exceptional.

 

[Heronfish]

That was the wrong answer for that particular family farm.

Everyones operation is operating within different parameter.

What isn't profitable for guy A in location A could be very lucrative for guy B in location B.

This is the equivalent to me saying the sky here is blue and you replying that no it isn't, because it is night where you are.
Adds absolutely nothing to any conversation.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

This is the equivalent to me saying the sky here is blue and you replying that no it isn't, because it is night where you are.
Adds absolutely nothing to any conversation.

So your saying that what is possible and profitable for you at your location, will be the same everywhere?