Remitall Herefords

[Herefords.US]

I didn't want to hi-jack the 832W thread, so I thought I'd start a new one.

I received the Remitall sale catalog and was again impressed with the looks of their cattle, especially the Lot 1 bull and the Lot 28 heifer.

I thought the Patriot bull was special when I saw him in the sale catalog where he sold and now that they have calves on the ground by him, I'm even more impressed.

There are several Canadians that post here as well as the US breeders, so I was wondering how big a negative do you consider the high BW EPD to be in these cattle?

Their sale catalog (Adobe Acrobat) can be downloaded at
http://www.remitall.ca/hsale06a.pdf

George

 

[txag]

I was wondering how big a negative do you consider the high BW EPD to be in these cattle?

you'll not only see lower birthweights in those cattle down here, but you'll see lower mature weights as well.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Let me go get some popcorn and a coke with the lawn chair.

 

[glover36]

well i consider that birthwieght normal becuase we got alot of calves in the 100 some with hereford influence

 

[1848]

well i consider that birthwieght normal becuase we got alot of calves in the 100 some with hereford influence

:shock: That is exactly why the Canadian influence should be carefully selected and managed when used on cattle a little further south. It is also why Remitall can continually boast weaning weights easily over 700 lbs with some pushing 1,000 (no doubt being pushed with supplementation and lush pasture). Many of their bull prospects in the catalog weigh in the mid 90's in the first place, and I am sure this is an average BW for their calves. No telling how many good bulls don't make the catalog because they weigh in the 3 digit range and won't be considered for seedstock purposes. Of course the Holden program also has allot of heavyweights when you look through their catalog too.

I agree with TXAG. The performance may be no better in your program then with any other bulls you currently use...Most people will coddle these expensive investments because they are AI or ET, not to mention put the mating with the absolute best cow instead of the bottom end (trying to improve) and then claim them to be much better...it's a vicious cycle

 

[Campground Cattle]

I hate Remitalls worse line I ever purchased I have one left. I have never retained a heifer or a bull calf for a herdsire. Every calf that has been born out of that line here has went to the salebarn.

 

[snuffy]

The bwt's are no suprise when cattle are managed they way they are. Big roomy cows, of course the bwts will be higher.

Are the cattle really as good as the money they get for them?

 

[redfornow]

Yep, not getting close to this one.

MD

 

[SaskHerf]

Well since you guys started it, I have a few theories i wouldn't mind sharing. #1 on Patriot, I think he is a pretty decent bull and seems to be adding alot of bone and muscle to calves and moderating them. He may be a bit on the heavy end for B.W. with his epd for it rising to 9.2 or somewhere in there. That takes me on to #2. B.W., lots of you people cringe when someone talks about 100lb calves, well, we have lots of them up here and i think a big part of this is caused by winter and spring calving with the cold weather. The cows are kept in pens and many, not all, are fed as much high quality hay as they can eat as well as grain(especially at seedstock producers, because they like to have fat cows they can show their customers year round). This standing around in a pen and overeating is definately a big part of the B.W. issue. People in the states should not be afraid to use cattle from Canada, just like we use U.S. genetics and they are as normal for B.W. and Weaning weight as our own genetics. Both traits IMO have a high reliance on environment, and thus change as environment conditions change

 

[oakcreekfarms]

I love em, they have tremendous cattle and there are a lot of bulls out there with decent bwt's that go back to Remitall bulls. I wouldn't use a bull witha 9 BW, but like I don't really think that they should.My last remitall bred bull calved at #70.

 

[Herefords.US]

I hate Remitalls worse line I ever purchased I have one left. I have never retained a heifer or a bull calf for a herdsire. Every calf that has been born out of that line here has went to the salebarn.

Would you elaborate as to what fault(s) that you find in the Remitalls?

George

 

[Campground Cattle]

I hate Remitalls worse line I ever purchased I have one left. I have never retained a heifer or a bull calf for a herdsire. Every calf that has been born out of that line here has went to the salebarn.

Would you elaborate as to what fault(s) that you find in the Remitalls?

George

There growth sucks, and they have a high percentage of nut cases. Big headed calfs that don't grow. Worst line of Herefords there is.

 

[1848]

....People in the states should not be afraid to use cattle from Canada, just like we use U.S. genetics and they are as normal for B.W. and Weaning weight as our own genetics.

.

I agree with you that the environment weighs heavily on any program, and heavier calves are more common and more accepted in the North, but it is not just the BW that is the issue. It is the frame size and nutritional demands which are bred into these cattle based on management. I don't think it is about being afraid to use them, but more be careful "how" you use them.

 

[oakcreekfarms]

In kansas remitall calves grow very well. Ours out of 1200lbs cows are weaning around 650. THat's over 50% on just grass and momma. They don't get those huge WW unless they are helped along, but that is the same for any line.

 

[Herefords.US]

There growth sucks, and they have a high percentage of nut cases. Big headed calfs that don't grow. Worst line of Herefords there is.

Thanks for your reply, CC. That hasn't been my experience at all! Granted, my herd bull is only 50% Remitall breeding (a son of Keynote 20X out of a Line 1 cow), but he is the gentlest bull I've ever been around and he passes that trait on to his calves. And they grow as well! The drought forced me to sell my calves early this year and they averaged a little over 500 lbs (auction sale weight) at right at 5 months of age, average. Not Remitall numbers, but not bad for drought ridden Texas with no creep.

Also, I've calved 25+ heifers to him with no calving problems except one moderate pull on an 89 lb bull calf from a heifer that had a 90 lb birthweight herself. That's the largest calf I've had from him. Most have been around 80 lb.

His first 4 daughters (of mine) have recently calved for the first time and they are extraordinary, all of which is making me consider putting another bull of Remitall breeding back on them.

When I've related my experience to other breeders, whose opinion I respect, they have almost been unanimous in expressing the same opinion that SaskHerf and txag have in this thread. That the results I'm seeing are a result of management and environment and had these same cattle been in Montana or Canada, I might have well seen BWs of 10 lb or more average.

I don't know - I just know it's worked for me. My concern is that these cattle already have BW EPDs above breed average. Breeding them back to a bull that has a +7 or +9 BW will increase that. How acceptable would those BW EPDs be to other breeders and commercial cattlemen? Is actual experience or an arbitrary number the most important information?

George

 

[1848]

Is actual experience or an arbitrary number the most important information?

George

Experience..unless your breeding on paper...assuming you still record actual data and breed according to the "actual" performance. If you report the data correctly it will reflect in the EPD's over a period of generations anyway. You may never get the EPD's to "adjust" completely to reflect the epitomy of EPD numbers or what the animal "should" be comparing with based on EPD averages, but don't let numbers determine which animal is good in your herd and which is not.

 

[Campground Cattle]

Is actual experience or an arbitrary number the most important information?

George

Experience..unless your breeding on paper...assuming you still record actual data and breed according to the "actual" performance. If you report the data correctly it will reflect in the EPD's over a period of generations anyway. You may never get the EPD's to "adjust" completely to reflect the epitomy of EPD numbers or what the animal "should" be comparing with based on EPD averages, but don't let numbers determine which animal is good in your herd and which is not.

I am Hereford seedstock producer and I wouldn't you fifty cents for every and Remitall there is they are paper cattle IMO. They do not perform on grass and in heat. If you think Remitalls are performing you should try to get some good cattle
like Victor lines Jimmy Farrington lines or Braxton.

 

[oakcreekfarms]

Well I think about the victor lines like you think about the Remitalls. The victor lines are good for harsher conditions where grass is poor. They are small bones, and don't put enough flesh on the calves. Don't like em. THough I can easily deal with a victor x remitall cross which is what Red Hills is doing.

 

[Herefords.US]

I am Hereford seedstock producer and I wouldn't you fifty cents for every and Remitall there is they are paper cattle IMO. They do not perform on grass and in heat. If you think Remitalls are performing you should try to get some good cattle
like Victor lines Jimmy Farrington lines or Braxton.

Well, CC, you're entitled to your opinion. Based on my experience, so far, I disagree.

I do have a question for you! My experience in Herefords is primarily on the horned side, 25 years of raising Anxiety 4th bloodlines, then a 17 year hiatus before getting started back into the Hereford business in 2002. I'm still learning about the polled bloodlines.

I'm somewhat familiar with the Victors and have seen cattle that traced back to Braxton Giant 1. But I've never heard of Jimmy Farrington. I "googled" the name with zero relevant results. So could you give me some history regarding the Farrington lines?

George

 

[Herefords.US]

Experience..unless your breeding on paper...assuming you still record actual data and breed according to the "actual" performance. If you report the data correctly it will reflect in the EPD's over a period of generations anyway. You may never get the EPD's to "adjust" completely to reflect the epitomy of EPD numbers or what the animal "should" be comparing with based on EPD averages, but don't let numbers determine which animal is good in your herd and which is not.

Thanks for your input! The EPDs were a new experience to me when I started back in 2002. And I tended to put too much emphasis on them at first.

We had participated in the old TPR program for about 20 years. The "in-herd" data that we got from that was pretty useful.

But I've seen some things that have made me seriously question the real value of EPDs, except where there is considerable data to back it up, as in widely used bulls.

An example is the P606 bull. He was initially being marketed as a low BW, calving ease bull, but as his use has widened, his BW EPD has skyrocketed while his YW EPD has also receded by about 20 lb. No doubt he's still a very good bull, but his EPDs have changed.

Here is the press release for the next Hereford 101 online:

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Hereford 101: So You Think You Know EPDs
The next online Hereford 101 will be Oct. 20 at 7 p.m. CDT. Dan Moser, Kansas State University associate professor, will join Jack Ward, AHA chief operating officer and director of breed improvement, to discuss why EPDs are more important than actual individual performance.

Participants will be encouraged to submit questions, either by calling in or through the online "chat."

In order to view the video, your computer needs to have a broadband connection to the Internet. Dial up Internet will allow you to participate, but will only facilitate the audio portion of the Webinar.

If you go to LiveAuctions.tv, you will see an item in the calendar (list of auctions) for Hereford 101. Click on it and you will be prompted to enter a user name and password. If you haven't previously set up an account you can do so via the Web site. It only takes a minute or two; just click on the "Hereford 101" item, and then on "Create a New User." It is strongly suggested that you set up an account before the night of the Webinar.

For more information, contact Ward at (816) 842-3757 or [email protected].

*************************************

Now this is one that I definitely intend to tune in on and watch with interest!

George