milesvb
Well-known member
I'm looking at buying one of two bulls for our herd. I want one that I can use on heifers also. One has a BW of -0.5 and the other +1.4. Would the later bull's BW EPD preclude his use on heifers?
Red Angus EPD question
- Thread starter milesvb
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What are there ctual calving ease numbers and accuracies? Some bulls can through a tiny calf that's hard birthing others can throw larger calves that come easy. Although BW does have an affect, shape has more (my persoanl opinion). But I think it's been born out by research
dun
dun
KB
Well-known member
Personally, with Red Angus we like to stick to BW EPDs under "0" for use on our heifers and the higher the better on Calving Ease EPD. I agree with Dun and would also add that it depends on the breed type of the heifers you will be putting this prospective bull on.
dun":enxtapwa said:
I'd be very interested in any university research that shows the shape of a calf affects calving ease. And how to identify bulls that will sire calves that are the right shape. All the university research that I've seen targets BW as the key to calving ease. But it's older research, so I'd be glad to see some more recent data.
Do "Big headed big shouldered calves" generally weigh more than small headed, shouldered calves? And what's "big headed?" "Big" is an opinion. What a calf actually weighs can be measured on a scale. I was at a neighbor's recently when she had to have a calf pulled out of a heifer. He had a big head, alright, but he also weighed over 90 lbs. But I'm not arguing with your comments; I'm looking for the research Dun says he's read.
Frankie":2wln2wxn said:
The drive I had all of my pdf files stored on took a giant craparoo last week and ate the disk. Now I get to search around and see if I can find all of the stuff that I had saved. So, I'll be looking for that stuff again too.
dun
Frankie":3uq6oybv said:
The drive I had all of my pdf files stored on took a giant craparoo last week and ate the disk. Now I get to search around and see if I can find all of the stuff that I had saved. So, I'll be looking for that stuff again too.
dun
ollie
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Any common person off the street that doesn't know where milk comes from would know a longer calf of the exact same diameter will weigh more and be the same difficulty to calve. Conversly a calf bigger around and shorter that weighs the same will be a harder delivery. Go back and argue something else.Frankie":2ez0k93b said:
CattleAnnie
Well-known member
Ollie, That's why buying bulls with 110 lb birthweights to use on my mature cows doesn't bother me. I've bought bred heifers (x Red Angus low birthweight bulls) and have had to crank drummy little bucket headed calves out of them. I find that a long, clean fronted bull tends to sire long, easy to deliver (if you're a cow, that is) calves. Mind you, I'd guess my cows average weights being in the mid 1500 lb range, so that does have to be taken into consideration.
An oldtimer at a local cattlemens meeting about cracked me up one time. The topic of discussion was getting pretty heated about the wonders of the low birth weight bulls, and this "know-it-all" arrogant, overbearing woman (and why is it we all seem to have the unfortunate priviledge of knowing one of these) was going on and on about 70 lb birthweight calves being the only type worth breeding for. Anyway, this old fella (beat up hat, twinkle-in-the-eye) says to her, "Lady, look at it this way...would ya rather give birth to a 7 lb barrel of oil or a 10 lb salmon?" The look on that woman's face was priceless! And went well with her red shirt...
Take care.
An oldtimer at a local cattlemens meeting about cracked me up one time. The topic of discussion was getting pretty heated about the wonders of the low birth weight bulls, and this "know-it-all" arrogant, overbearing woman (and why is it we all seem to have the unfortunate priviledge of knowing one of these) was going on and on about 70 lb birthweight calves being the only type worth breeding for. Anyway, this old fella (beat up hat, twinkle-in-the-eye) says to her, "Lady, look at it this way...would ya rather give birth to a 7 lb barrel of oil or a 10 lb salmon?" The look on that woman's face was priceless! And went well with her red shirt...
Take care.
Fleckvieh DPB
Well-known member
i agree with CattleAnnie
go for a long bull with a long narrow head.
the calves will tend to be more aerodinamic like the "10 pound samon".
a short headed shorter bull is more compact and solid like a "7 pound barrel of oil"
think it thru
it should make sense
al
go for a long bull with a long narrow head.
the calves will tend to be more aerodinamic like the "10 pound samon".
a short headed shorter bull is more compact and solid like a "7 pound barrel of oil"
think it thru
it should make sense
al
Frankie":djkf5hr7 said:
This is the data that a quicky check found:
From http://advs.usu.edu/advs/FACULTY/rdw2080notes26.pdf
Calf Shape: Next to absolute weight of the calf, shape of the calf is the next most important factor associated with dystocia. Some breeds of cattle carry genetics for Double Muscling. This doesn't meant that they have 2 sets of each muscle group, but the muscle groups are quite larger in size compared to normal. Breeds such as the Charolais are noted for double muscling. This trait can, of course, increase the percent retail cuts from a carcass, but it can cause an increase in dystocia if the double muscle genetics is expressed before birth. There are breeds of cattle such as the Piedmontese that do have double muscling genetics but is expressed after birth and therefore has minimal effects on dystocia. This is the case with the Calipyge sheep now being studied by Dr. Noelle Cockett here at USU.
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/livestocksystems/DI5778.html
From a BIF fact sheet
Many cattle producers believe that differences in a newborn calf's shape can have an important effect on ease of delivery. For example, a slender, lighter-muscled, finer-boned calf theoretically should be born more easily than a thicker, heavier-muscled, coarser-boned calf of the same weight. However, researchers at MARC were unable to find any calf shape measurements significantly correlated with calving ease, even though they believe that such relationships likely exist. Data from Germany showed a relatively high correlation (.62) between chest girth at 330 days of age in Simmental sires and the calving difficulty of their progeny. In France, it was reported that calf body length and rump width were significantly correlated with calving difficulty in 2-year-old cows and that selection of French beef breeds based on muscle development and growth rate early in life had led to an increase in birth weight and calving difficulty in 2-year-old cows. In a Virginia study, researchers concluded that selection for calf shape, independent of birth weight, would not be expected to reduce dystocia. In summary, calf shape probably plays a role in dystocia, but it is extremely difficult to quantify.
dun
ollie":1fxe226h said:
This board is so full of knowledgable people. Please share more of your knowledge, Ollie. How long would a 90 lb bull calf need to be before a 1,000 heifer could have him without assistance? They didn't measure this bull calf's length, but I'd be interested in knowing what paramters you would suggest to identify calving ease bulls. Are you saying the head on a long bull calf is smaller than the head on a shorter coupled bull calf? Or that his shoulders would be smaller?
dun":2fazthke said:
Interesting: "However, researchers at MARC were unable to find any calf shape measurements significantly correlated with calving ease, even though they believe that such relationships likely exist." Thank you, Dun. I don't see any research there that shows calving ease is related to shape of the calf. If you come across what you read that does, would you please post it? As I said, everything I've ever read tells us that heavier calves are more likely to be harder for a heifer to have on her own. I'll continue to select bulls based on that until something better comes along. It's worked for a long time.
It's anecdotal at best, but we used a bull with a -3.4 for BW and one with a minus -0.1, Red Angus. Out of 950 lb heifers we've had problems with every one of the lighter bulls calves, and they are substantially lighter. He's a big head thrower. Once we work the head out, and it's a chore, the calves come easy. The other bulls calves are shaped like a weanie, there just isn't a big part on them other then length. His calves squirt out like s.... from a goose. We've quit using the lighter BW bull. But his daughters calve easy, but the calves have all been longer headed.
For what it's worth, I think it's a lot like the wider squarer head of a horned Herferod verses a Polled Hereford. There are also those that maintain a sloped shouldered calf comes easier then a square shouldered one, never have noticed that.
You'll notice too, MARC did say they think there is a correlation, just haven't figured out what it is yet.
dun
For what it's worth, I think it's a lot like the wider squarer head of a horned Herferod verses a Polled Hereford. There are also those that maintain a sloped shouldered calf comes easier then a square shouldered one, never have noticed that.
You'll notice too, MARC did say they think there is a correlation, just haven't figured out what it is yet.
dun
Tod Dague
Well-known member
When the Red Angus Association developed the CED and CETM EPD's using calving ease scores it was found that there was not a 100% correlation between BW and calving ease. Something else other than BW was involved. They don't know what it is but it does not matter. What is important is the calving ease of the bull which is better determined by using calving ease scores at calving. BW is a good indicator trait so the Red Angus association factors this into the CED EPD.
