Reading registration papers

[Dave Clarkson]

I was wondering if someone could help me understand the numbers. I called the Angus association and they didnt get back to me with info. I called a friend who understands.......but he is busy or something. I searched web sites and watched videos. I explains what the epd is and describes the different categories but doesnt tell me what the numbers are about. It there a chart or something I could go to for explaination?

From what I understand on the top box with IND, Sire and Dam the letter "I" before the number for the ind stands for interim. which means there isnt enough info to make a guess which is why he has a .05 down below his weights.

So, any information on how to decipher the numbers. I assume that the top number is plus or minus the average for the herd and the percent below is how accurate the prediction would be. Its better to have a BW that is a lower number and a CED number that is higher.. Are the BW and CED numbers on a scale from 1 - 10? And the rest of the categories are in lbs compared against the group average.

I have no clue on the long box on the bottom. I believe on one part the sire has 209 calves out of 94 herds?

Thanks for any info or advice.

 

[J+ Cattle]

Instead of looking at the papers, I would suggest that you go to the Angus.org website and lookup the animal by registration number. The EPDs change all the time and as more data gets reported on offspring the sire data should become more accurate. If the animal was HD50K tested by a DNA sample that also improve the accuracy.
Take BW EPD as an example, the +4.7 number is not based on breed average, you use it to compare to another sire. One sire has a BW of +4.7 and another has a BW of -0.5. The prediction is that the first sire will have calves that are 5.2 lbs heavier on average than the second sire. The number under the BW number (.80) is the accuracy of the prediction which comes from actual BW measurements reported by others that have used the sire.

I hope this helps.

 

[simme]

Read The Results

www.angus.org

This describes angus EPD's and the units. For instance, Birth Weight EPD is in pounds. If one animal has a BW EPD of +1 and another animal has a +2, then that indicates that the second animal would be expected to sire a calf that is 1 pound heavier at birth than the first animal (on average). Calving Ease is in percentage of unassisted births. Milk is in pounds of calf weaned due to milk from the dam. All described on the website. Remember that you do not look at the absolute value, but the difference between the number for an animal and another animal or breed average. Remember that you cannot calculate or predict the numerical value of a trait from an EPD. For instance, a Weaning Weight EPD cannot be used to predict a weaning weight. It is used to predict a difference in weaning weight between two animals in the same environment.

 

[Redgully]

There was a series of webinars explaining it all, can't find them now, very interesting how they work it out.

 

[Redgully]

Found it

 

[Redgully]

But that is Australian, we call ebv, you call epd.

 

[Dave Clarkson]

Read The Results

www.angus.org

This describes angus EPD's and the units. For instance, Birth Weight EPD is in pounds. If one animal has a BW EPD of +1 and another animal has a +2, then that indicates that the second animal would be expected to sire a calf that is 1 pound heavier at birth than the first animal (on average). Calving Ease is in percentage of unassisted births. Milk is in pounds of calf weaned due to milk from the dam. All described on the website. Remember that you do not look at the absolute value, but the difference between the number for an animal and another animal or breed average. Remember that you cannot calculate or predict the numerical value of a trait from an EPD. For instance, a Weaning Weight EPD cannot be used to predict a weaning weight. It is used to predict a difference in weaning weight between two animals in the same environment.

Is it the same for BW and CED as you described for weaning weight? The number would be used predict the difference between two different animals not the CED or BW that the individual animal would produce? The + or - numbers arnt on a scale it is used as a difference? That is making more sense. Thanks for your help!

 

[Dave Clarkson]

Found it

Thanks! I will check it out!

 

[Dave Clarkson]

Instead of looking at the papers, I would suggest that you go to the Angus.org website and lookup the animal by registration number. The EPDs change all the time and as more data gets reported on offspring the sire data should become more accurate. If the animal was HD50K tested by a DNA sample that also improve the accuracy.
Take BW EPD as an example, the +4.7 number is not based on breed average, you use it to compare to another sire. One sire has a BW of +4.7 and another has a BW of -0.5. The prediction is that the first sire will have calves that are 5.2 lbs heavier on average than the second sire. The number under the BW number (.80) is the accuracy of the prediction which comes from actual BW measurements reported by others that have used the sire.

I hope this helps.

Oh, so these numbers on the paperwork is not written in stone. So, if I sold the bull two years from now the person purchasing would have to go to the web site and log in his number to see updated EPD's? Thanks for the info and help. It would be impossible for me to figure this out with no help.

 

[simme]

Is it the same for BW and CED as you described for weaning weight? The number would be used predict the difference between two different animals not the CED or BW that the individual animal would produce? The + or - numbers arnt on a scale it is used as a difference? That is making more sense. Thanks for your help!

That is correct. The D in EPD stands for difference. Used to compare predicted differences between animals. If the BW EPD is +2, actual birth weight of a calf might be 40 pounds or 140 pounds - depending on environment. If the BW EPD is 0, then statistically the calf might be 38 pounds to 138 pounds. Extreme numbers picked for illustration. Actuals are determined by a lot more than genetics - environment, management, health. EPD's attempt to predict the genetic contribution based on observed (measured) data from lots of calves. Based on my example birth weights, you could say that it is worthless. You can have a 40 pound calf. You can have a 140 pound calf. But those are rare. If there were no EPD's and you had a bull that sired very large calves and pulled half of them at the same time that you had another bull that sired smaller calves that were not assisted at birth, you would probably decide to not use the first bull again - based on your observations. EPD's attempt to provide that decision making data in a number - based on what has been seen/measured.

Every EPD has a predicted accuracy - based on the quantity of data/measurement points that were available to predict the number. If the accuracy is low, don't trust the number as much. If the fuel gauge on your truck had a 20% accuracy, how would you use the data in deciding when to fill the tank? Yearling bulls usually have EPD accuracies around 20%.

 

[Dave Clarkson]

That is correct. The D in EPD stands for difference. Used to compare predicted differences between animals. If the BW EPD is +2, actual birth weight of a calf might be 40 pounds or 140 pounds - depending on environment. If the BW EPD is 0, then statistically the calf might be 38 pounds to 138 pounds. Extreme numbers picked for illustration. Actuals are determined by a lot more than genetics - environment, management, health. EPD's attempt to predict the genetic contribution based on observed (measured) data from lots of calves. Based on my example birth weights, you could say that it is worthless. You can have a 40 pound calf. You can have a 140 pound calf. But those are rare. If there were no EPD's and you had a bull that sired very large calves and pulled half of them at the same time that you had another bull that sired smaller calves that were not assisted at birth, you would probably decide to not use the first bull again - based on your observations. EPD's attempt to provide that decision making data in a number - based on what has been seen/measured.

Every EPD has a predicted accuracy - based on the quantity of data/measurement points that were available to predict the number. If the accuracy is low, don't trust the number as much. If the fuel gauge on your truck had a 20% accuracy, how would you use the data in deciding when to fill the tank? Yearling bulls usually have EPD accuracies around 20%.

Thanks for helping clear things up. I think what in need to do is find out what exactly what recordings a breeder makes when the calf is born and along the line like WW and YW. Then I will work my way forward from there. That should give me a little more understanding of the numbers. A little guy like me with 50 cows wouldn't make a big difference with my recordings but I guess it is all of the breeders combined is what gives the numbers. I don't think that if I did decide to get into breeding registered cattle that by the time I separated my small herd into contemporary groups.....my information on my specific cattle would mean much to a local buyer. They would look at the numbers of the cattle that mine came from to make an educated guess on quality or traits. Pleas correct me if I am off base. Thanks again!

 

[Ebenezer]

Thanks for helping clear things up. I think what in need to do is find out what exactly what recordings a breeder makes when the calf is born and along the line like WW and YW. Then I will work my way forward from there. That should give me a little more understanding of the numbers. A little guy like me with 50 cows wouldn't make a big difference with my recordings but I guess it is all of the breeders combined is what gives the numbers. I don't think that if I did decide to get into breeding registered cattle that by the time I separated my small herd into contemporary groups.....my information on my specific cattle would mean much to a local buyer. They would look at the numbers of the cattle that mine came from to make an educated guess on quality or traits. Pleas correct me if I am off base. Thanks again!

Small herds, older genetics and less used bloodlines will never be players in EPDs. The apparent design is to forget the past, ignore all but the bigger herds and focus on the mainstream bulls which are sold internationally. Really a shame to treat the majority of the membership. But elitism is alive and well.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

No. All cattle reported are used in calculations. If your calf was AI sired, it would go in the data base for that pedigree. It's easier to get higher accuracies with AI sires and difficult to get high accuracies on dams. Numbers game.
EPD's are a TOOL. Not a Bible.
They are helpful, but use common sense.

 

[Dave Clarkson]

Small herds, older genetics and less used bloodlines will never be players in EPDs. The apparent design is to forget the past, ignore all but the bigger herds and focus on the mainstream bulls which are sold internationally. Really a shame to treat the majority of the membership. But elitism is alive and well.

I doubt I would never make it into their "contemporary group" even though my environment is supposed to be taken into account LOL. Thanks for all of your help.....it is greatly appreciated. I feel like I have a basic understanding of things now.

 

[Aero]

Small herds, older genetics and less used bloodlines will never be players in EPDs. The apparent design is to forget the past, ignore all but the bigger herds and focus on the mainstream bulls which are sold internationally. Really a shame to treat the majority of the membership. But elitism is alive and well.

I know a guy that has a closed herd and at one time was using one high accuracy AI bull in his herd just to stay tethered to the moving database when he turned in records. I'm not sure how that turned out in the end but it seemed smart at the time. A lot of closed herds get lost and no matter how much the bull buyer understands your program, some "bad" EPDs will prevent sales even though they aren't tied to reality.

 

[Ebenezer]

I know a guy that has a closed herd and at one time was using one high accuracy AI bull in his herd just to stay tethered to the moving database when he turned in records. I'm not sure how that turned out in the end but it seemed smart at the time. A lot of closed herds get lost and no matter how much the bull buyer understands your program, some "bad" EPDs will prevent sales even though they aren't tied to reality.

It is nearly impossible to bring up EPDs with the use of one outside bull. I focus on buyers who want real cows and bulls rather than estimated numbers. As Allan used to sing, "here in the real world, it ain't that easy at all".

 

[Aero]

It is nearly impossible to bring up EPDs with the use of one outside bull. I focus on buyers who want real cows and bulls rather than estimated numbers. As Allan used to sing, "here in the real world, it ain't that easy at all".

I'm not saying it keeps the EPDs completely right but it at least lets you show bull customers the ratios compared to something they "know". I have to believe it would at least move them in the right direction with a reasonable number of bulls in each sire group. One time wouldn't move anything but doing it every year would have to make a difference. I guess it would also give you something more mainstream to sell to get folks to buy if they are on the fence. Not a lot of down sides really.

 

[Redgully]

It is nearly impossible to bring up EPDs with the use of one outside bull. I focus on buyers who want real cows and bulls rather than estimated numbers. As Allan used to sing, "here in the real world, it ain't that easy at all".

I've seen excellent herds destroyed chasing ebvs here. One breeder had sold genetics world wide, got into ebvs and now can't give his bulls away. Tall and narrow with terrible feet, but hey, on paper he is the best bull in the herd. What do they say these days, he's a real curve bender that one, shame he can't walk though.

Other herds use ebvs and pump out excellent cattle so can be incorporated but needs a balanced approach.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

EPD's (EBV's) are a TOOL. They are just ONE tool that we should use to improve the traits that we need. People get too hung up with research info and forget to LOOK at their cattle. Phenotype is more important than what you are going to learn on paper. There has to be a balance. Even feedlot cattle have to be looked at. Feet and legs, has got to be most important. You as a producer may be selling your calves at weaning and don't care if they can walk well or not. But, your feedlot BUYERS care. And they won't be repeat buyers if you sell them cattle that can't walk to the feeder.
Everyone knows I like pretty cattle. But, my pretty cattle grow. I need a balance. So does everyone. Yes, I use EPD's to help me breed my cows. But, first I pick a bull because of what he looks like (whole package, feet, legs, length, smooth shoulders, etc). Then after I decide I want calves out of the bull, I print out a spreadsheet of all the bulls with their EPD's and match them to cows' printout - phenotype and genetype.

 

[Ebenezer]

I'm not saying it keeps the EPDs completely right but it at least lets you show bull customers the ratios compared to something they "know". I have to believe it would at least move them in the right direction with a reasonable number of bulls in each sire group. One time wouldn't move anything but doing it every year would have to make a difference. I guess it would also give you something more mainstream to sell to get folks to buy if they are on the fence. Not a lot of down sides really.

Give it a try. I'll just keep breeding most of what works than trying to make a % that might not. If you ever followed the Wye herd back when they did an outcross program for a period you'd know the answer. Moving EPDs up at a fraction of the mainstream inflationary rate is still playing catch up. The numbers are not the end-all for me as I 'd rather let the cows work for me.