Purebred Angus bulls without papers

[CattleMan1920]

I have a question, or more like an informal survey. Many times, almost weekly, I encounter or get a call from people who need a bull, they want an Angus bull, a really good one, but they either cannot or do not want to pay $3k-5k for a registered bull or even more for A.I. sons. We have a short conversation and then they are on their merry way. They don't get a bull, and I don't get a sale.

Now as you guys may know from the short time I've been on here, I breed only registered Angus cattle. There are no commercial cattle on our operation, and 90% of the females are AI'd. This might mean something to other Angus breeders or to someone that is seeking a bull for a specific purpose, but to many people I speak with, it doesn't mean jack sh..t. They just want a bull to get the job done, they don't want any issues with him, and they want him cheap. They don't care about papers because they will never be transferring registration or joining AAA. They know they want black calves because that's what they will typically make the most money on when they take cattle to the stockyards.

Considering what I have said above, is it worth taking sons of top AI sires like SAV President, Baldridge Colonel, SAV International, and so on, use those sons on older cows, or the bottom 25% in terms of EPD's or non AI daughters, get bulls from them and sell those bulls for $2k with no registration papers, no genetic tests, and no BSE at 12 months? Basically, no guarantees of any kind. The bull buyer would get a cheap purebred Angus bull out of a registered cow and sire, AND they would have a grandson of an exceptional AI sire. The bulls would be sold as yearlings, they would have received a very limited grain ration, and would have been developed mostly on low quality hay or grass, not much more. I'll recap, no guarantees other than the fact that they came from top pedigrees. It would basically be a Cadillac for the price of an entry level Chevy.

I'm sure other registered producers in KY would not be too happy about this, because it will dilute their advantage in the business, but I think it's more practical than steering these animals and the demand is clearly strong. I know you may think I'm obnoxious when I say this, but these bulls would probably exceed most of what you see at registered sales for far less cost and would ultimately help the small producers improve their herd, which is a win. The risk they run however by NOT paying for the whole ************* package is a potentially sterile bull, no registration, no EPD information, no knowledge of whether it's terminal or calving ease, basically nothing more than its guaranteed to be purebred Angus from registered Angus sire and dams. I think many people would be fine with that around here. They buy mystery bulls every day.

They would be sold under a different company, because I would never stamp our brand on the product, that is only for our registered animals from AI or ET. If a buyer was uncomfortable with the mystery bull, they could always pay up for the higher quality direct AI son and have all the information he or she could ever want on a bull.

Would like your feedback, good, bad, and of course the UGLY!

 

[ALACOWMAN]

A lot of breeders keep those lower end Bulls intact for that purpose..but seems like you could get a bad reputation before long..the majority of my cheaper Bulls were older, used by Angus breeders ...and I know the Bulls if they don't work, I only blame myself..,but that ain't always the case when the word gets out that you are producing poor quality...even though you may not..

 

[jscunn]

even at $2000 you are getting a premium over selling it at the sale barn, the least you should do is make sure the Bull has a BSE, that way you knew he was a breeder when he left your place. Run the commercial bulls next to the expensive bulls, that way the buyer knows what the price difference is getting him. I know a guy that runs his bulls in pens by price (3500, 3000, 2500, etc) he says the expensive pen always sells better than the less expensive pen.

As far as your neighboring breeders go, they don't pay your bills. If you can make it selling $2000 bulls and you think that is a fair price then do it. The beauty of capitalism..

 

[Ky hills]

I have a question, or more like an informal survey. Many times, almost weekly, I encounter or get a call from people who need a bull, they want an Angus bull, a really good one, but they either cannot or do not want to pay $3k-5k for a registered bull or even more for A.I. sons. We have a short conversation and then they are on their merry way. They don't get a bull, and I don't get a sale.

Now as you guys may know from the short time I've been on here, I breed only registered Angus cattle. There are no commercial cattle on our operation, and 90% of the females are AI'd. This might mean something to other Angus breeders or to someone that is seeking a bull for a specific purpose, but to many people I speak with, it doesn't mean jack sh..t. They just want a bull to get the job done, they don't want any issues with him, and they want him cheap. They don't care about papers because they will never be transferring registration or joining AAA. They know they want black calves because that's what they will typically make the most money on when they take cattle to the stockyards.

Considering what I have said above, is it worth taking sons of top AI sires like SAV President, Baldridge Colonel, SAV International, and so on, use those sons on older cows, or the bottom 25% in terms of EPD's or non AI daughters, get bulls from them and sell those bulls for $2k with no registration papers, no genetic tests, and no BSE at 12 months? Basically, no guarantees of any kind. The bull buyer would get a cheap purebred Angus bull out of a registered cow and sire, AND they would have a grandson of an exceptional AI sire. The bulls would be sold as yearlings, they would have received a very limited grain ration, and would have been developed mostly on low quality hay or grass, not much more. I'll recap, no guarantees other than the fact that they came from top pedigrees. It would basically be a Cadillac for the price of an entry level Chevy.

I'm sure other registered producers in KY would not be too happy about this, because it will dilute their advantage in the business, but I think it's more practical than steering these animals and the demand is clearly strong. I know you may think I'm obnoxious when I say this, but these bulls would probably exceed most of what you see at registered sales for far less cost and would ultimately help the small producers improve their herd, which is a win. The risk they run however by NOT paying for the whole ************* package is a potentially sterile bull, no registration, no EPD information, no knowledge of whether it's terminal or calving ease, basically nothing more than its guaranteed to be purebred Angus from registered Angus sire and dams. I think many people would be fine with that around here. They buy mystery bulls every day.

They would be sold under a different company, because I would never stamp our brand on the product, that is only for our registered animals from AI or ET. If a buyer was uncomfortable with the mystery bull, they could always pay up for the higher quality direct AI son and have all the information he or she could ever want on a bull.

Would like your feedback, good, bad, and of course the UGLY!

Branded, with all due respect, it is my befief that you are underestimating many registered Angus producers. There are quite a few in this area, that sell bulls sired by current AI sires as well as some ET calves, in the $2000-$3000 range. Not all of those bulls are produced on minimal quality hay and nutrition. If the breeder is wise and most are, a BSE will be performed before the bull changes hands. Most will register their bulls, the only caveat that I often see is that DNA testing isnt always done, but in some situations it is. The reality is we ( you and I ) are in areas where it is extremely hard to make those high end sales to commercial breeders. You have obviously broken through and to that I can say congratulations. There are a range of commercial breeders just as there are a range of registered. Some will want to go the higher route countinmg on a percieved better investment, if they can justify it. Others see no need to do that with the limited marketing options they have. My self being a former registered breeder, I like to have a registered bull as I think it does give some record or credibility if you will to the calves or bred females. Whether that is paid attention to at sale time by prospective feeder calf buyers is very unlikely.
There is a market for cheaply raised unregistered bulls, but I truly believe it is getting less and less over time because of the fact that there are quite a few registered Angus bulls available for that around $2000-$3000 range.

 

[Rydero]

A few places it could go wrong. First it could cannibalize sales of your more expensive bulls. If people believe they're getting almost the same thing for less many will go for that option, maybe more than you'd think. Second it lessens your brand. Even if you run it through another company it could be made to look sleazy and underhanded pretty easily. You likely won't be controlling the message, your competition will. So other company or not - people find out and you have to own it or be deceptive, it's ************* or you lie and say it isn't when they know it is. Another factor is you'd be sending the message that a bull is a bull and all those fancy papers, AI and ET are just people charging way more for the same old thing. I wouldn't think that'd be the message I'd want out there if I was in the purebred business.
Rolls Royce doesn't make economy cars.

 

[CattleMan1920]

A lot of breeders keep those lower end Bulls intact for that purpose..but seems like you could get a bad reputation before long..the majority of my cheaper Bulls were older, used by Angus breeders ...and I know the Bulls if they don't work, I only blame myself..,but that ain't always the case when the word gets out that you are producing poor quality...even though you may not..

That has always been my way of thinking as well. I've never had any animals returned because I keep the quality high, from A to Z, but as I said before, a LOT of people could care less about that quality.

My intentions moving forward were to steer everything that was not from AI or ET, but I've had several people I know tell me it would be a shame to cut an animal like what we are producing.

I felt that a buffer to keep the bad mouthing away would be, no brand on the animal, no papers, and a sale from a completely different company. They would essentially be commercial, but with high-end pedigrees behind them.

My gut tells me however that you are spot on.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

https://farmia.com/offers/details/ea50e91a-00aa-432c-ba82-8951e3e2b87c/7-angus-bulls-for-sale
Got any of these still for sale? 2500 ain't a bad price.

 

[CattleMan1920]

A few places it could go wrong. First it could cannibalize sales of your more expensive bulls. If people believe they're getting almost the same thing for less many will go for that option, maybe more than you'd think. Second it lessens your brand. Even if you run it through another company it could be made to look sleazy and underhanded pretty easily. You likely won't be controlling the message, your competition will. So other company or not - people find out and you have to own it or be deceptive, it's ************* or you lie and say it isn't when they know it is. Another factor is you'd be sending the message that a bull is a bull and all those fancy papers, AI and ET are just people charging way more for the same old thing. I wouldn't think that'd be the message I'd want out there if I was in the purebred business.

I appreciate that thorough analysis of the idea. I've not done this ever, but wanted serious feedback, and now I'm getting it from the horse's mouth, and it's how I have felt about things thus far. Hold the line, don't cheapen anything for the sake of a sale. I can't tell you how many people I never sell to because I won't budge on my price. They won't budge either, so we never reach a sale.

Our operation, like many others, moves ahead from month to month, year to year. Some move laterally, some move straight up, ours is the latter, with quality improving rapidly due to AI.

I guess I'm a snob when it comes to cattle, but I can totally tell the difference between my SAV President sons or Internationals and the sons from a herd sire. No comparison.

It's not a plan that is the best setup for Kentucky, but I would rather steer EVERYTHING that's not AI and use the non-AI daughters as recips after they are AI'd on their first service and have an AI calf. It doesn't take but 5-10 years of stacking up those AI genetics to improve things greatly. Problem is most people don't have the patience or staying power to make it happen.

As I've said before, I'm not interested in having a production sale until I can bring 40-50 AI sons to sale, without a single non AI bull in there. Most sales I see in Kentucky have 10-20 AI sons or less, then the rest is grandsons or great grandsons. Prices fall off a cliff and people start to walk out after the AI sired bulls are sold. I don't want that kind of sale.

 

[CattleMan1920]

https://farmia.com/offers/details/ea50e91a-00aa-432c-ba82-8951e3e2b87c/7-angus-bulls-for-sale

I appreciate you bringing attention to my bulls, but they were yearlings, non-AI, from Stone Gate sires. I was moving them out ahead of winter. Even at that price they were ahead of the average registered Angus sale average in KY.

Go online and search all you want for our AI sons and you will not find a one for sale, especially not at that price. The people that jumped on that ad were willing to develop the bulls on out themselves, which worked out for me.

 

[CattleMan1920]

even at $2000 you are getting a premium over selling it at the sale barn, the least you should do is make sure the Bull has a BSE, that way you knew he was a breeder when he left your place. Run the commercial bulls next to the expensive bulls, that way the buyer knows what the price difference is getting him. I know a guy that runs his bulls in pens by price (3500, 3000, 2500, etc) he says the expensive pen always sells better than the less expensive pen.

As far as your neighboring breeders go, they don't pay your bills. If you can make it selling $2000 bulls and you think that is a fair price then do it. The beauty of capitalism..

All you have to do to sell an expensive bull, in my experience, is tell the buyer "over here are our "cheap" bulls"

The expression on most buyers faces, even if they don't want to spend much is always the same

It's a sales technique that never wears out.

"The cheap bulls are over here"

"What's in that lot over there?"

"Oh, those are the AI sons, they cost a lot more"

"Do you mind if I take a quick look at them?"

I can count on that conversation like I can count on the sun coming up.

 

[NEFarmwife]

We sell commercial bulls. We have for the last 3 years now, did global i50K thru Zoetis on them. No sire verification. But we do BSE them. Why would you ever sell a bull to someone without knowing if they're any good?

We also stand behind them on breeding guarantee.

I wouldn't sell "low quality purebred as commercial"... Cuz then you're selling junk. Our commercials are truly nice looking, good structured bulls.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

https://farmia.com/offers/details/ea50e91a-00aa-432c-ba82-8951e3e2b87c/7-angus-bulls-for-sale

I appreciate you bringing attention to my bulls, but they were yearlings, non-AI, from Stone Gate sires. I was moving them out ahead of winter. Even at that price they were ahead of the average registered Angus sale average in KY.

Go online and search all you want for our AI sons and you will not find a one for sale, especially not at that price. The people that jumped on that ad were willing to develop the bulls on out themselves, which worked out for me.

At least one was a 2 y/o. Point was you are retaining some and selling them for less than $3000. So maybe you should keep on doing like your doing, 2500 is better than 1500 at the sale barn.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Branded, with all due respect, it is my befief that you are underestimating many registered Angus producers. There are quite a few in this area, that sell bulls sired by current AI sires as well as some ET calves, in the $2000-$3000 range. Not all of those bulls are produced on minimal quality hay and nutrition. If the breeder is wise and most are, a BSE will be performed before the bull changes hands. Most will register their bulls, the only caveat that I often see is that DNA testing isnt always done, but in some situations it is. The reality is we ( you and I ) are in areas where it is extremely hard to make those high end sales to commercial breeders. You have obviously broken through and to that I can say congratulations. There are a range of commercial breeders just as there are a range of registered. Some will want to go the higher route countinmg on a percieved better investment, if they can justify it. Others see no need to do that with the limited marketing options they have. My self being a former registered breeder, I like to have a registered bull as I think it does give some record or credibility if you will to the calves or bred females. Whether that is paid attention to at sale time by prospective feeder calf buyers is very unlikely.
There is a market for cheaply raised unregistered bulls, but I truly believe it is getting less and less over time because of the fact that there are quite a few registered Angus bulls available for that around $2000-$3000 range.

Thank you for the feedback. I realize what you said was true. But not every bull is created equal. As you can imagine, I scan the sales pretty closely. I have a pretty good idea of what's out there. I'm not putting down anyone's product when I say this, but if I was a commercial producer and could get a DNA proven grandson out of SAV International and a high quality Angus dam into my herd for $2k, I would probably have to strongly consider it.

As for the BSE, I have no problem with that, I just don't want to pay for it. Cheap, means I don't pay for anything, that's why it's cheap. I meet lots of people that want favors. Last time I checked, favors can become costly.

My breeding strategy is basically like this, and it's served me well. I look at what is selling, what the trend is, and I stay away from that. Let's say everyone is selling KCF Bennett Fortress sons, or HA Cowboy Up sons. There are 10 registered producers basically all selling the same bulls at auction. What I like to breed are the outliers, the combinations that if you woke up tomorrow and said "I want a SAV President son, or I want a Baldridge Colonel son, or how about a VAR Explorer 6293 son? Sons that were developed from day one on Kentucky soil and conditions. Where would you find them? Tell me how many President sons or Elation sons are available in Kentucky right now, even if money were no object, they would be nearly impossible to find. I know the number, and it's extremely low. If cattle were cars, I don't want to sell the 1970 340 ci Cuda, I want to sell the 426 Hemi in a rare color.

I'm just interested in using some of these sons natural service to see the results, I could steer everything, but there may be some really good animals that come about from them.

 

[CattleMan1920]

https://farmia.com/offers/details/ea50e91a-00aa-432c-ba82-8951e3e2b87c/7-angus-bulls-for-sale

I appreciate you bringing attention to my bulls, but they were yearlings, non-AI, from Stone Gate sires. I was moving them out ahead of winter. Even at that price they were ahead of the average registered Angus sale average in KY.

Go online and search all you want for our AI sons and you will not find a one for sale, especially not at that price. The people that jumped on that ad were willing to develop the bulls on out themselves, which worked out for me.

At least one was a 2 y/o. Point was you are retaining some and selling them for less than $3000. So maybe you should keep on doing like your doing, 2500 is better than 1500 at the sale barn.

The one in the picture and the other 2 y/o both sold for $3k. Which is above the state average. Know your facts. Here is the info on the one in the photo.

http://bit.ly/2S5uXSC

I'm surprised, I figured that if I had grandsons out of President, Harvestor, or International, that were actually from them and not make-believe, and if offered at $2k, that you would be doing a burn out with your truck and trailer to come up and get them? You strike me as someone who likes a VERY good deal on your bulls. Maybe I'm wrong about you.

 

[Nesikep]

I guess I'm a snob when it comes to cattle, but I can totally tell the difference between my SAV President sons or Internationals and the sons from a herd sire. No comparison.

Considering what I have said above, is it worth taking sons of top AI sires like SAV President, Baldridge Colonel, SAV International, and so on, use those sons on older cows, or the bottom 25% in terms of EPD's or non AI daughters, get bulls from them and sell those bulls for $2k with no registration papers, no genetic tests, and no BSE at 12 months? Basically, no guarantees of any kind. The bull buyer would get a cheap purebred Angus bull out of a registered cow and sire, AND they would have a grandson of an exceptional AI sire. The bulls would be sold as yearlings, they would have received a very limited grain ration, and would have been developed mostly on low quality hay or grass, not much more. I'll recap, no guarantees other than the fact that they came from top pedigrees. It would basically be a Cadillac for the price of an entry level Chevy.

I don't know how you're developing the natural service bulls, but deliberately making them look inferior doesn't sound like a winning strategy to me.. Yeah, you can forgo the genetic tests, but a BSE ought to be done on them.

I never argue about the price of an animal, but I can say that with a small herd there's a limit to what I can spend on a bull just because I won't get enough calves out of him to spread out the premium.. If he sires 50 calves a year for 6 years vs 20 calves a year for 4 years really changes the way it pencils out.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I guess I'm a snob when it comes to cattle, but I can totally tell the difference between my SAV President sons or Internationals and the sons from a herd sire. No comparison.

Considering what I have said above, is it worth taking sons of top AI sires like SAV President, Baldridge Colonel, SAV International, and so on, use those sons on older cows, or the bottom 25% in terms of EPD's or non AI daughters, get bulls from them and sell those bulls for $2k with no registration papers, no genetic tests, and no BSE at 12 months? Basically, no guarantees of any kind. The bull buyer would get a cheap purebred Angus bull out of a registered cow and sire, AND they would have a grandson of an exceptional AI sire. The bulls would be sold as yearlings, they would have received a very limited grain ration, and would have been developed mostly on low quality hay or grass, not much more. I'll recap, no guarantees other than the fact that they came from top pedigrees. It would basically be a Cadillac for the price of an entry level Chevy.

I don't know how you're developing the natural service bulls, but deliberately making them look inferior doesn't sound like a winning strategy to me.. Yeah, you can forgo the genetic tests, but a BSE ought to be done on them.

I never argue about the price of an animal, but I can say that with a small herd there's a limit to what I can spend on a bull just because I won't get enough calves out of him to spread out the premium.. If he sires 50 calves a year for 6 years vs 20 calves a year for 4 years really changes the way it pencils out.

I don't make them look inferior. Unfortunately, I have a weak spot, and I feed everyone equally when it comes to nutrition, no cow left behind, so to say, or no bull left behind. I was asking a legitimate question and the responses have told me a lot. I was merely saying "over here are AI sons, over here are non AI sons"

Those bulls in the ads received top nutrition from day one, they have never had a bad day, as is often said.

The reason I mentioned the nutrition is because of the comments I often hear. Which is, "When this bull gets back to my farm, he sure won't be fed the way you are feeding them" So my reasoning is this "Why put so much in a bull that is only going to get the rug pulled out from him as soon as he is purchased?" Not everyone treats their bulls as such, and I've dealt with my fair share that take excellent care of their investment, but most don't. Most bulls around here are driven into the ground, and are pretty much worthless after 3 years.

As for penciling out a bull. I've heard time and again, "$3500? How will I ever justify that?" if you have 20 good females, they all get pregnant and maybe you lose 2 calves a year, so you get 18 calves a year. You use the bull for two years, that's 36 calves. If you can't get 36 calves and which are probably worth $800 at least to pencil out the cost of the bull, then I'm missing something, not to mention the residual on the bull when you sell him to your neighbor for $1200. You deduct the bull on your taxes, you resell him for $1200, how can a $2300 investment be so hard to recoup?

 

[Nesikep]

I'm talking about the difference between a $2-3000 bull and maybe $4-5000 bull. It's one thing when you've got 2015 calf prices to spend more but right now it's just kinda blah.
The gelbvieh bull in my profile pic was a lucky buy.. Paid $3K for him delivered, he gained lots of weight, sired lots of calves, prices went up, sold him at 7 years old for $3300 (2015)

 

[CattleMan1920]

We sell commercial bulls. We have for the last 3 years now, did global i50K thru Zoetis on them. No sire verification. But we do BSE them. Why would you ever sell a bull to someone without knowing if they're any good?

We also stand behind them on breeding guarantee.

I wouldn't sell "low quality purebred as commercial"... Cuz then you're selling junk. Our commercials are truly nice looking, good structured bulls.

I assure you they would not be junk, I don't have any junk on our operation. Anyone around here can tell you that.

As I have said before, it's like options on a truck, or features in a home. Nothing is for free. I'm willing to give you top genetics at a bare bone price, but I'm not paying for anything. If the buyer wants a BSE, that is at their expense.

I would never buy a bull without a BSE, but you would be SHOCKED at how many people will, I've met many folks that said "he looks good, I'm not worried"

If you want to I50k them for people that could care less, which is the case here in Kentucky, probably different where you are, then that's an added benefit I guess. My cattle either get HD50k or Angus Source with the genetic bundle package. Most could really care less, but that test is for me, not them. I want to make sure there is not a carrier in my herd. I don't trust "implied by pedigree" I have to know for sure that there are no carriers. There is a sale coming up in KY and they have an International son, from a Boyd daughter, he is DDC. I wouldn't touch that bull with a 10 foot pole, other's have no issues with that. I know it can be bred out, but why introduce it in the first place. If I had a carrier of a recessive, he would be steered, no questions asked.

Making sure the entire herd is free of recessives will filter down to the grandsons which will not be carriers, since we run a closed herd and have so for quite a while, I would know everything leaving here was clean.

I'm surprised at how fast tempers flare around here. I was solely asking if people would be interested in a bull with above average pedigree, a AI grandson, that was without papers, and all the other things we do to our bulls that are DEFINITELY taken for granted. I was in no way gearing up for an online brawl.

It seems to me, that all the people that say registered Angus don't mean much, sure want to see that pedigree and genomic epds, and they want them fed well before they pick them up for use, oh, and a great BSE. It feels like most people want something for nothing, which of course is human nature. I personally would not purchase a $2k Angus bull or below and expect much out of it.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I'm talking about the difference between a $2-3000 bull and maybe $4-5000 bull. It's one thing when you've got 2015 calf prices to spend more but right now it's just kinda blah.
The gelbvieh bull in my profile pic was a lucky buy.. Paid $3K for him delivered, he gained lots of weight, sired lots of calves, prices went up, sold him at 7 years old for $3300 (2015)

You touched on something that people forget, a good bull has a residual. That is really good what you pulled off. I applaud you.

 

[Nesikep]

I just see it that if you buy a bull, he should be fit to work.. even if you don't do the BSE, guarantee he would (something like "Take him to the vet on your way out and get it done, if he doesn't pass, bring him back").. Otherwise sell him at the price of a steer if there's absolutely no guarantee

The market went up from $.50 on old bulls to $1.25 or so in those years.. The next bull I got to replace him went the other way. (back down to about $.80)