Genetic Defects Blocks My Registration

[inyati13]

On the subject of genetic defects, I am in the stages of registering a heifer I raised on the farm with the American Simmental Association. I had all the information in the data base but since the sire is a bull registered with AAA, I had to enter him in the ASA data base. Today, I was notified that he had been added and first thing I do is pay my $25 fee.

I open up Job # ******. I type in the Sires Reg # and hit submit data. It gives the the error reading. I drop down the error box and it says, "This animal's sire or dam needs to be tested for a genetic defect(s). Registration will be held."

I go to the animal search and enter his new ASA number. It says in the "TraitTrac" that my Bull who is now hamburger is as follows:
NH PR (population risk)
DD CL (carrier in lineage)
CA PR
AM PR

The fact is: This bull was tested by me for all four of those defects and is negative. If I go to AAA and look him up, under his registration number in those brackets he is listed as NHF, DDF, CAF AMF. All based on negative blood sample tests.

Ain't that a poke in the eye!!! Just when I was convinced everybody knew what they were doing. :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[inyati13]

Just got off the phone with a very nice lady in Bozeman, MT. She said as soon as the girl gets back from lunch she will correct the Sire's genetic status.

BTW: I just started doing my own registrations and this is only the second animal I have registered. The first one I registered was Star, a two year old heifer that just had a calf in March. I would like to hear the experiences of others who have hit these genetic defect snags when they do their registrations?

Here is a thought. This sire is dead I assume. I sold him almost a year ago for slaughter as he was not anything remarkable. What would a person do if this bull had not already been tested?

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

Just got off the phone with a very nice lady in Bozeman, MT. She said as soon as the girl gets back from lunch she will correct the Sire's genetic status.

BTW: I just started doing my own registrations and this is only the second animal I have registered. The first one I registered was Star, a two year old heifer that just had a calf in March. I would like to hear the experiences of others who have hit these genetic defect snags when they do their registrations?

Here is a thought. This sire is dead I assume. I sold him almost a year ago for slaughter as he was not anything remarkable. What would a person do if this bull had not already been tested?

test the calf you are registering

 

[inyati13]

Just got off the phone with a very nice lady in Bozeman, MT. She said as soon as the girl gets back from lunch she will correct the Sire's genetic status.

BTW: I just started doing my own registrations and this is only the second animal I have registered. The first one I registered was Star, a two year old heifer that just had a calf in March. I would like to hear the experiences of others who have hit these genetic defect snags when they do their registrations?

Here is a thought. This sire is dead I assume. I sold him almost a year ago for slaughter as he was not anything remarkable. What would a person do if this bull had not already been tested?

test the calf you are registering

Just got off the phone with the Leoma. Kris, you are correct, she is "the cat's meow". BTW: She agrees with me that the Green, Yellow, Red buttons were misleading. In fact, I found an ally. She said if we knew the entire genetic background of every lineage, every animal would have a Red button.

You are right, test the calf. In fact, I found out that I failed to test DD on Casper and before the registration can be released on Melaina, I am going to have to test her for DD. No big deal. I got plenty of time.

 

[Katpau]

It is a good policy to keep a spare blood card or two on every bull or cow that might provide you with any replacements in the future. You never know what problems in the way of defects might be discovered. Testing one bull or cow could save you tests on all of their ancestors, if that animal tests free of the defect. If you have done any testing on an animal in the past, the lab may still have enough of a sample to test for new defects, but they do eventually run out, so a spare blood card is always a good idea.

 

[boondocks]

It is a good policy to keep a spare blood card or two on every bull or cow that might provide you with any replacements in the future. You never know what problems in the way of defects might be discovered. Testing one bull or cow could save you tests on all of their ancestors, if that animal tests free of the defect. If you have done any testing on an animal in the past, the lab may still have enough of a sample to test for new defects, but they do eventually run out, so a spare blood card is always a good idea.

That's good advice! Do they last a few years? What conditions should you keep the card under? (I assume you don't send it in for the lab to hold onto!).

 

[boondocks]

[
Just got off the phone with the Leoma. Kris, you are correct, she is "the cat's meow". BTW: She agrees with me that the Green, Yellow, Red buttons were misleading. In fact, I found an ally. She said if we knew the entire genetic background of every lineage, every animal would have a Red button.

You are right, test the calf. In fact, I found out that I failed to test DD on Casper and before the registration can be released on Melaina, I am going to have to test her for DD. No big deal. I got plenty of time.[/quote]

I have to test one of my calves because the dam is NHC, and AAA requires that the offspring be tested.

Another calf I don't have to test for DD, under AAA rules, but I think we will. (Her dam is DDF but the Select Sires AI bull (as discussed in earlier thread) is DDC. If she comes back DDC, my understanding is that she's still registrable but I'm not sure we'd breed her. Maybe we'd use sexed semen and try for a steer...

You mentioned an AAA bull; does the Simmental registry allow SimAngus registration? Or is there a separate registry? (sorry, I know nothing about that area).

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

I have to test one of my calves because the dam is NHC, and AAA requires that the offspring be tested.

Another calf I don't have to test for DD, under AAA rules, but I think we will. (Her dam is DDF but the Select Sires AI bull (as discussed in earlier thread) is DDC. If she comes back DDC, my understanding is that she's still registrable but I'm not sure we'd breed her. Maybe we'd use sexed semen and try for a steer...

You mentioned an AAA bull; does the Simmental registry allow SimAngus registration? Or is there a separate registry? (sorry, I know nothing about that area).

Yes,the Simmental registry has an open herd book, meaning anything can be registered as long as it has simmental blood. Most people register half bloods or higher, but not less. A quarter of our herd is half or 3/4 registered Simmental, and we show them just as much as the purebreds. Two of my half bloods are carrierers, one for NH and one for CA. We test all calves that are born, and cut any bulls that test positive.

 

[boondocks]

Makes sense, Firesweep! Thanks for the background.

 

[inyati13]

Thanks, Katpau. That is a good idea. Especially for Bulls that are rotated out of the herd and may not be available in the future. I got my blood sample from the subject heifer last evening and am getting ready to send it out to Stockmans Resource Center today.

Kris: You stated:Most people register half bloods or higher, but not less. This heifer is only a quarter simmental. The reason I want her registered is to allow easy registration of her calves. Her dam is the HPRP cow you like so well. This heifer has the sweetest disposition of anything I have had in the 4 years I been at this. Even more docile than Star. I walked her into the chute last night like she was a puppy. When I got her in the chute, I was astonished at her size. In the chute, you get a frame of reference. When I walked around to prick her under the tail to draw a drop of blood, she gave the impression of a full sized cow. She will be a year old on August 8 th. I am going to guess she is easily already 900 pounds (I need a scales). I will AI her this fall. If I breed her to a PB Simmental bull, her calves will be 5/8 Simmental.

 

[cbcr]

Simmental as well as most of the other Continental registries allow the registration of animals as long as they have a minimum of 25% of the registry breed.

 

[AllForage]

I have to test one of my calves because the dam is NHC, and AAA requires that the offspring be tested.

Another calf I don't have to test for DD, under AAA rules, but I think we will. (Her dam is DDF but the Select Sires AI bull (as discussed in earlier thread) is DDC. If she comes back DDC, my understanding is that she's still registrable but I'm not sure we'd breed her. Maybe we'd use sexed semen and try for a steer...

You mentioned an AAA bull; does the Simmental registry allow SimAngus registration? Or is there a separate registry? (sorry, I know nothing about that area).

Yes,the Simmental registry has an open herd book, meaning anything can be registered as long as it has simmental blood. Most people register half bloods or higher, but not less. A quarter of our herd is half or 3/4 registered Simmental, and we show them just as much as the purebreds. Two of my half bloods are carrierers, one for NH and one for CA. We test all calves that are born, and cut any bulls that test positive.

Sorry Ron for asking off topic, but I am going to step in it here. This is not directed at fire sweep only just using her answer.

Is there a consensus among simi breeders that 50% blood is appropriate for registration? That is merely a crossbred in my mind. I would think 87.5% would be a serious attempt at breed up. How does anyone handle the epd issue with rampant heterosis? Are only purebreds compared? Whats to stop someone from constantly backcrossing between angus and simi to bump numbers and performance? Do you see customers seeking purebreds over the breed ups?

just curious....

 

[inyati13]

Good questions, Ryan. Let me know how you are in a PM when you can.

 

[Ohrmundt Simmentals]

Ron, I just had to test 4 of our cows that are the base of a very large portion of our herd. We needed to test for DD. They all came back free. Used hair samples. I wanted to get them test since we kept some bulls that have the cows in their pedigree. I want to clean up the issue. I have had a pretty experience working with ASA staff when I questions or issues.

As far as registering a 1/2 crossbred with ASA. If you're looking bred up which is something that we do with a number of our animals. You need to start somewhere. Whether it 1/2, 3/4..... We had registered simmentals back in the 80's and never kept up the papers on the calves. About 8 years ago I started registering again with our PB bulls that we use. So most of our old cows are/where PB but I could not register them as such since the sires was not know to ASA. I could only reg. the calves as 1/2 Sim 1/2 Commercial Sim. I think as long as you know what your breeding for then what ASA allows you to do with reg. is nice. As your not trying to miss lead any one. Which I don't think the case at all. I just think ASA figures why not put it out there in open 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, PB what ever. The only thing now with breeding up is dealing with more gentic issue from other breeds. Just something else to look out for.

 

[dun]

From a different perspective based on percentages. Red Angus allows breeding up, not sure what the minimum is. Any animal bred up from aother breed the accuracy of the EPDs isn;t very accurate, more of a SWAG. When they get above 87.5% the accuracy improves a lot based on EPDs and observed actual performance. But as was noted, you gotta start somewhere for pedigree purposes.

 

[cbcr]

We certainly understand a breeding up and a breeder needing to start from somewhere. As far as EPD accuracy, even though the ASA is supposed to have a multi-breed evaluation, if the percentage of the other breed compositions is not known the the accuracy on 1/2 bloods will not be as accurate. Even with known parentage this could be the case. The reason why would be not knowing which traits or how much of each trait is available from the contributing breeds. However if these crosses are bred together, by some consensus from some experts in genetics by the third cross the accuracy would begin to be stabilized.

We have 2 registries, Beef and Dairy, and in the process of grading up we require a minimum percentage to be at 87.5% which is pretty much as industry standard for purebred. Our feeling for composites is that for a composite to be considered as a purebred, they should be a 5/8 x 3/8 percentage. However in order to add newer genetics, 1/2 and 3/4 blood animals would be needed to create new purebreds of 5/8 x 3/8.

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

I agree with all that has been said here. We always breed up, never down. A half blood will be AId to a purebred at our place. With the EPD's we always use known AI sires, so the EPD's are pretty accurate on the resulting calves. We do have one cow in our herd that is a half blood, sired by Macho and her dam is only known as 1/4 Maine and 1/4 angus, but no parentage. Her EPD stinks because of this, since she only gets the numbers from her sire as I understand it. And he does not have a good set of EPDs. That cow weans off one of our heaviest calves each year, and two years in a row her bulls have won at the Missouri State Fair... Champion percentage in open and junior. She is by far one of our best cows, picture perfect udder and good conception... But she passes her epd profile down to her calves.... And that stinks.
We have people buying bulls of both purebred and percentage, but the lowest percentage we have sold was 3/4 blood. People look more at phenotype and EPD's than whether he is purebred or not. Most of our customers just want more pounds at weaning and do not care about the registration papers.

 

[cow pollinater]

I sincerely doubt that you could sell a sim bull over 50% to a commercial cattleman in my area. What is wanted is heterosis on angus cows... but not enough to make them NOT angus calves.

I have to test one of my calves because the dam is NHC, and AAA requires that the offspring be tested.

Another calf I don't have to test for DD, under AAA rules, but I think we will. (Her dam is DDF but the Select Sires AI bull (as discussed in earlier thread) is DDC. If she comes back DDC, my understanding is that she's still registrable but I'm not sure we'd breed her. Maybe we'd use sexed semen and try for a steer...

You mentioned an AAA bull; does the Simmental registry allow SimAngus registration? Or is there a separate registry? (sorry, I know nothing about that area).

Yes,the Simmental registry has an open herd book, meaning anything can be registered as long as it has simmental blood. Most people register half bloods or higher, but not less. A quarter of our herd is half or 3/4 registered Simmental, and we show them just as much as the purebreds. Two of my half bloods are carrierers, one for NH and one for CA. We test all calves that are born, and cut any bulls that test positive.

Sorry Ron for asking off topic, but I am going to step in it here. This is not directed at fire sweep only just using her answer.

Is there a consensus among simi breeders that 50% blood is appropriate for registration? That is merely a crossbred in my mind. I would think 87.5% would be a serious attempt at breed up. How does anyone handle the epd issue with rampant heterosis? Are only purebreds compared? Whats to stop someone from constantly backcrossing between angus and simi to bump numbers and performance? Do you see customers seeking purebreds over the breed ups?

just curious....

 

[inyati13]

I agree with all that has been said here. We always breed up, never down. A half blood will be AId to a purebred at our place. With the EPD's we always use known AI sires, so the EPD's are pretty accurate on the resulting calves. We do have one cow in our herd that is a half blood, sired by Macho and her dam is only known as 1/4 Maine and 1/4 angus, but no parentage. Her EPD stinks because of this, since she only gets the numbers from her sire as I understand it. And he does not have a good set of EPDs. That cow weans off one of our heaviest calves each year, and two years in a row her bulls have won at the Missouri State Fair... Champion percentage in open and junior. She is by far one of our best cows, picture perfect udder and good conception... But she passes her epd profile down to her calves.... And that stinks.
We have people buying bulls of both purebred and percentage, but the lowest percentage we have sold was 3/4 blood. People look more at phenotype and EPD's than whether he is purebred or not. Most of our customers just want more pounds at weaning and do not care about the registration papers.

That does stink. I got Melaina registered and she is in the ASA data base but the EPDs are being held until I submit the DD sample. I sent it out to Stockmans yesterday.