REA Size

[Post Oak]

Ebenezer, that is kinda the idea that I have been having. When I move up the road and buy my second farm, I am thinking of keeping my oldest and best cows up there and AIing them to maternal sires with high CEM and average or higher BW. I would just keep my heifers up there and AI them to a calving ease bull. I could keep my "middle age" cows on my present farm and use my friends Braunangus bull as sort of a terminal cross. I have been using calving ease bulls for years and keeping the heifers, that is a little cause for concern.

 

[Ebenezer]

"Pregnancy has four times greater economic impact than any other production trait," says Cliff Lamb, beef cattle specialist, University of Florida's North Florida Research and Education Center (UF-NFREC). If producers want to maximize their herd's potential, selection criteria must first be focused around fertility, followed by traits that suit the operations program, he adds.

 

[Son of Butch]

Butch - Can you tell me/us how you use $ index data?

Okay let's take WW vs $W and compare 3 proven sires from Select Sires as an example

Comrade ... ce 17 bw -3.4 acc .91 ww 52 radg .20 Milk 23 $W 65
Total........ ce -4 bw +3.2 acc .98 ww 66 radg .28 milk 23 $W 45
Early Bird.. ce 15 bw -0.2 acc .75 ww 53 radg .20 milk 23 $W 45
breed ave ce 6 bw 1.3 ww 50 radg .20 milk 24 $W 45

Comrade calves have the lowest ww lbs yet he has the highest $W value out of all 3 bulls
How is that possible?
Calf Vigor is my theory....
That Comrade calves have a higher survivability to weaning than the other 2 sires
Comrade and Early Bird have near identical numbers - E.B. has the 1 lb ww advantage yet Comrade is $20 higher $W
Total has the highest WW but is no better than the calving ease bull Early Bird for $W even with a 13 lb higher ww.
Why?
Bcs Total's calving ease is 10 points below breed average his calves probably have a higher death rate at birth.
And it takes a heck of a lot of extra lbs weaned to make up for the value of even one dead calf.

The Holstein Association reports calf mortality. But not one beef breed association does, which is strange because
IMO calf survivabilty is the #1 factor in beef cow profitability. (One live calf is worth more than 100 dead calves)
ww/$W ratios = Comrade 1.25 Early Bird .85 Total .68 That's how and why I use $W vs ww in sire selection.

By the way 7AN340 Summit has a fantastic ratio of 1.86 with ww 59 $W 110

 

[Ebenezer]

Weaned Calf $Value ($W) quantifies four primary economic impact areas:
1.Birth Weight - birth weight influences on calf death losses related to dystocia, weaned calf crop percentage, and resulting revenue per cow.
2.Weaning Weight - direct growth impact on weaning weight revenue (pre-weaning growth and pounds of calf sold) and energy requirements and related costs to necessary to support pre-weaning calf growth.
3.Maternal Milk - revenue from calf pre-weaning growth and pounds of calf sold as influenced by varying cow milk levels, and costs related to lactation energy requirements.
4.Mature Cow Size - expense adjustments are made for maintenance energy as related to differing mature cow size, including mathematical linkages between mature weight and yearling weight.
The impact areas are combined into a bio-economic value expressed in dollars per head assigned to Angus genetics from birth through weaning. Resources used to form the Wean Calf Value ($W) include National Research Council (NRC), US Meat and Animal Research Center (USMARC), Cattle-Fax, SPA and university cow-calf budgets, and the American Angus Association performance database.
$Values only have meaning when used in comparing the relative merit or ranking of two individuals. $W provides the expected dollar-per-head difference in future progeny preweaning performance in a multi-trait fashion, within a typical U.S. beef cowherd. If Bull A has a $W of +50.00 and Bull B has a $W of +35.00, and these sires were randomly mated to a comparable set of females and the calves were exposed to the same environment, and a normal number of replacement females were saved from both sires, on average you could expect Bull A's progeny to have a +15.00 per head advantage in pre-weaning value over Bull B's progeny (50.00 - 35.00 = +15.00 per head). As with any $Value, $W only has meaning when used in comparing the relative merit or ranking of two individuals.

As with other $Values, the Weaned Calf Value includes assumptions, as listed below:


Base Calf Price $205 per cwt
Cow/Heifer Mix 80%/20%
Cow Weight 1300 lb
Feed energy cost $.115 per MCal NEm

 

[Son of Butch]

Thanks for posting Ebenezer. As your post shows $ indexes quantify data for us, whereas an individual trait such as ww alone is nearly meaningless when not put into a proper context.
$ indexes simplify selection by doing the math for you.
And the beef calf prices used and feed costs are routinely updated to remain as current as possible.

Kingfisher stated he had trouble understanding the information $ index provided and the technical explanations.
So, I tried to break it down into layman terms to illustrate the importance of calf vigor/mortality in the equation.
I selected 3 proven bulls with Exact same Milk epd and Early Bird and Comrade have the Exact same RADG and
Early Bird and Total have Exact same $W I did this on purpose in an effort to limit other influences.
Select Sires does not list Mature Cow size edps on their website, so that wasn't available to me.

I'll repeat, I truly do not understand that a Dairy breed collects and publishes stillborn and calf mortality and yet
NO Beef Breed seems to think that it is important enough to even bother.

 

[Son of Butch]

$Values only have meaning when used in comparing the relative merit or ranking of two individuals.

And when used in comparing to same breed, breed averages to measure genetic progression or regression.

 

[elkwc]

"As with other $Values, the Weaned Calf Value includes assumptions, "

The words "assumptions" and "predicted" are why myself and many others feel EPD's are of little value in selection for the commercial cowman. I have spent many hours trying to inform myself about them and used them for a limited time like many of the good cowmen I know. At this time I feel the accuracy is too low and they have been formulated by people who have never borrowed a dollar at the bank on a cow and have limited value. Like mentioned they use cow size. I personally like a cow with more size. I have seen the bulls I need to produce the cow I want many times has a lower $W. But the calves I wean from that bull are usually greater and also with proper management I haven't seen the increased calf mortality unless you are talking about huge cows in the 1,750 range up.

 

[Son of Butch]

"As with other $Values, the Weaned Calf Value includes assumptions, "

The words "assumptions" and "predicted" are why myself and many others feel EPD's are of little value in selection
for the commercial cowman.
What words would you prefer when calculating the outcome of a future event?
Guaranteed? New and Improved? Lead pipe cinch?

and they have been formulated by people who have never borrowed a dollar at the bank on a cow and have limited value.
And the people doing math formulations on the Manhatten Project never carried a rifle, so of limited value in WWII.

and also with proper management I haven't seen the increased calf mortality
Really?!? No correlation between increased birth weights and calf mortality?
What do you include in your definition of proper management... no 1st calf heifers allowed and baby sitting cows?

Data is a tool, it is not a be all end all some breeders would like it to be.
But that's no excuse to throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

[elkwc]

"As with other $Values, the Weaned Calf Value includes assumptions, "

The words "assumptions" and "predicted" are why myself and many others feel EPD's are of little value in selection
for the commercial cowman.
What words would you prefer when calculating the outcome of a future event?
Guaranteed? New and Improved? Lead pipe cinch?

and they have been formulated by people who have never borrowed a dollar at the bank on a cow and have limited value.
And the people doing math formulations on the Manhatten Project never carried a rifle, so of limited value in WWII.

and also with proper management I haven't seen the increased calf mortality
Really?!? No correlation between increased birth weights and calf mortality?
What do you include in your definition of proper management... no 1st calf heifers allowed and baby sitting cows?

Data is a tool, it is not a be all end all some breeders would like it to be.
But that's no excuse to throw the baby out with the bath water.

I was taught at an early age that assuming and assumptions many times make an a_ _ out of a person. Especially when basing them on low accuracy predictions. Most knowledgeable cowmen I've talked too say they don't pay any attention to an EPD until it reaches the 60% accuracy level and don't put much stock into them until they reach the 80% level. Until that level is attained accurate actual data along with knowledge of pedigrees and visual analysis is the best avenue for many of us commercial cowmen. Accurate data is a tool. Low accuracy data is many times worse and more misleading than no data at all.

I call good management to include proper and complete nutrition for the cow.I don't babysit cows and we calf heifers. With proper development of the heifers and good bull selection we have had very few issues the last 3 years.

If those figuring the data many times compiled on adjusted and manipulated data had to face the banker and get up at night they might change the way they do things. Just because cow size goes up a reasonable amount doesn't mean calf size has to go out of the roof. We sold many older cows last year when the prices were up. The majority went from 1,450 to 1,550. In the 3 years I've been involved with this set of cows there has been a handful of calves that would weigh over 90 lbs. We don't weight every calf but after my 60 plus years on this planet I have a fair idea of calf size. The majority have been in the 80-90 lb range with a few smaller. If a 1,400 lb cow can't have a 90-95 lb calf something is wrong. At least that has been my experience.

 

[Ebenezer]

I don't see how discussion of or actual data about calf mortality fits into $W data. I do see it the mature weight of the cow is lower then apparently it rewards the sire with higher $W due to cow's efficiency of eating less because she weighs less. Looks like weaning weight is a plus but MM is a minus, again, because the cow would eat more. Seems if a sire sires early growth, low mature weight and MM is shown as low it would allow the $W to be high. Looks like if feed intake is detrimental to $W then a fast growing calf that grazes/eats more would be as negative as the cow. Somehow they want big calves from small cows. Hard to do in a purebred operation without a constant yo-yo effect.

I guess they throw BW in there to assume that producers do not use judgment on selecting proper bulls to breed heifers?
And if high BW is a breed wide problem or negative, just pass a rule that no animal can be registered from parents if any of them generate a BW EPD over, what, say +4.0?

 

[Son of Butch]

I don't see how discussion of or actual data about calf mortality fits into $W data.
Didn't you read or understand what you yourself posted?

Weaned Calf $Value ($W) quantifies four primary economic impact areas:
1. Birth Weight - birth weight influences on calf death losses related to dystocia, weaned calf crop percentage, and resulting revenue per cow.

It's right there as point number 1 quoted from your own posting.

WW only tells you the average weight of the calves that lived to weaning.
A stillborn calf never makes it to weaning, therefore it drags down $W and that is why $W is the better selection tool than ww lbs.
Pounds weaned per cow exposed is what's important to Net Profit, not weaning weight averages.

 

[Ebenezer]

I don't see how discussion of or actual data about calf mortality fits into $W data.
Didn't you read or understand what you yourself posted?

Weaned Calf $Value ($W) quantifies four primary economic impact areas:
1. Birth Weight - birth weight influences on calf death losses related to dystocia, weaned calf crop percentage, and resulting revenue per cow.

It's right there as point number 1 quoted from your own posting.

WW only tells you the average weight of the calves that lived to weaning.
A stillborn calf never makes it to weaning, therefore it drags down $W and that is why $W is the better selection tool than ww lbs.
Pounds weaned per cow exposed is what's important to Net Profit, not weaning weight averages.

You apparently know that AAA uses calf mortality and a lack of a weaning weight as data points. I do not know that. I submit data and I assume that they use my "no assistance", "some assistance" or "hard pull" or whatever their terms on the dropdown to estimate a calving ease EPD. If they use a dead calf as a -50 EPD and a whole cow program where an open cow shows a 0 weaning weight then I can see your point. But I thought that the indexes were based on EPDs and current market values of calves and feed. If AAA required a whole herd reporting then you would be correct. They do not require whole herd reporting.

Honestly, I never pay much attention to $W. $EN tell me if a cow or bull would be a low producer (some call easy keeper) or a bag of bones in our management and environment. I want neither. $B is a terminal trait so I do not see much value for me in a balanced type vision where other breeds are a sure source and the economical option of terminal traits in F1s. I have a feel for EPDs and hope that they are accurate. But I have to laugh at some as our cows might calve unassisted with reasonable calf weights for 10 years and still have a low CED or a higher BW EPD. But I know the truth and motor on down the road.

 

[Post Oak]

I don't see how discussion of or actual data about calf mortality fits into $W data.
Didn't you read or understand what you yourself posted?

Weaned Calf $Value ($W) quantifies four primary economic impact areas:
1. Birth Weight - birth weight influences on calf death losses related to dystocia, weaned calf crop percentage, and resulting revenue per cow.

It's right there as point number 1 quoted from your own posting.

WW only tells you the average weight of the calves that lived to weaning.
A stillborn calf never makes it to weaning, therefore it drags down $W and that is why $W is the better selection tool than ww lbs.
Pounds weaned per cow exposed is what's important to Net Profit, not weaning weight averages.

You apparently know that AAA uses calf mortality and a lack of a weaning weight as data points. I do not know that. I submit data and I assume that they use my "no assistance", "some assistance" or "hard pull" or whatever their terms on the dropdown to estimate a calving ease EPD. If they use a dead calf as a -50 EPD and a whole cow program where an open cow shows a 0 weaning weight then I can see your point. But I thought that the indexes were based on EPDs and current market values of calves and feed. If AAA required a whole herd reporting then you would be correct. They do not require whole herd reporting.

Honestly, I never pay much attention to $W. $EN tell me if a cow or bull would be a low producer (some call easy keeper) or a bag of bones in our management and environment. I want neither. $B is a terminal trait so I do not see much value for me in a balanced type vision where other breeds are a sure source and the economical option of terminal traits in F1s. I have a feel for EPDs and hope that they are accurate. But I have to laugh at some as our cows might calve unassisted with reasonable calf weights for 10 years and still have a low CED or a higher BW EPD. But I know the truth and motor on down the road.

Those high$EN bulls make cows that stay healthy on Bahia grass pasture and hay. Some of those mainstream bloodlines get poor in that same environment .