Questions to Texas Cattlemen/women

[cypressfarms]

We just got back in from vacation in Colorado a couple of hours ago.

I had never driven through northern Texas, and am really glad that I did. I have some questions, if you Texans don't mind answering. Keep in mind that I'm from south Louisiana so usually adequate rain is never in question.

We drove up Interstate 49 in Louisiana and crossed into Texas on Int 20. We stayed in Dallas the first night, then Amarillo the next. To get to Amarillo we took Hwy 287, and cut through New Mexico onto Interstate 25 and up into Colorado.

Some observations as we drove by. Everything around the northeast Texas area looked great, as expected, and there were many, many fine cattle and large pastures with tall grass. We even saw a rancher bailing 4 bales up(at the same time? - looked weird to me) From Dallas to Amarillo the forage obviously got more sparse to the point of the extreme pan handle area of Texas was nothing but windmills (for water wells) and irrigation devices. The cattle in these places still looked fine, but you could tell they were given huge amount of acres per cow. Strange to see pronghorns walking around grazing with the cattle.

So here are the obvious questions. It appeared that in the northwest part of Texas rain is a problem, and they irrigate a lot. I looked like they were irrigating a grass crop; I even saw one such round crop cut with a large hay cutter, they were making big square bales. So given that water is so scarce, how can it be profitable to keep cattle on such land? It seems that in the summer months they are left to range graze on their own, but I'm assuming in the winter months they are fed the irrigated hay I saw being made. How can this be profitable? I know there must be a cost for the wells, and circular irrigation devices (some of those are HUGE). I wouldn't think a cow could make it all winter in that area without some hay or other feed. I'm mainly referring to the northwest Texas, northeast New Mexico, and southern Colorado area ( just east of Int 25)


I did see some huge feedlots, and that would make sense. In the Wichita Falls area, there were vast wheat fields, and I'm sure grain is easy to come by.

Can anyone help a confounded Louisiana boy that has trouble going without rain for a month, and all of my troughs are hardpiped from a water tower?

 

[andrews29]

I'm in southern colorado the way we do it is in the summers the cows go up in the mountains / hills and eat native feed depending on the land we may feed some hay as needed. Then come fall after last cutting on the hay fields cows are put on the hay fields to graze over the winter we also feed hay to them if needed. The cost for raising hay here is 78.00 per share of water. A share is 7.5 hours of water and we get 3 to 4 waterings per year. Then to pay some one to cut and bale it is around 18 an acre to cut and 0.95 per bale. Fertilizer is at 100 dollars per acre.

 

[andybob]

I would be interested to compare how the southern states cope with winter feeding with how we grazed in the summer rainfall bushveld where our winter dry season is seven months, with prolonged droughts common. By the mid 70's we were using a rotational grazing system developed by Alan Savory, native grass and browse was managed with low maintenance native cattle with only mineral suppliments, incorporating wildlife management to optimise the use of all available forage, supplying the venison export market from an annual winter cull.

 

[Angus Cowman]

Cypress
I am not in the Texas panhandle anymore but worked for a few yrs there and in the Ok panhandle
yes it takes a lot of acres per cow/calf pair I think our avcerage was aroungd 30-35 avcres per pr some was higher and some was lower
99% of the water the cows drink come from wells either windmill or electric pumps

as for the irrigated hay most hay in that country has to be irrigated if you want any kind of production
the grass type hay you are reffering to I am not sure as we only had alfalfa or wheat hay
maybe it was some irrigated Bermuda but I can't say
and yes the cows are out on pasture usually yr round and they get fed hay in the winter alot of these cows out there only get gathered once a yr and that is at weaning and let me tell ya they can get a little waspy

 

[Running Arrow Bill]

Yes, raising livestock in Texas Panhandle region and other parts of West Texas is a challenge.

At our location, we average about 22" rainfall a year. Usually very little in winter months November to March. Hay produced in this area includes Bermuda, Alfalfa, Red Top Cane/Haygrazer (Sorgham species), Wheat. Most all of the hay production around here is irrigated with Center Pivot Systems and fertilized. Cuttings can range from 2 to 5 a year, and usually begin in May, ending around August. Also, hay is imported from other parts of the country.

Large round bales (5 x 6', 1000 to 1500 lbs) sell between $45. and $75. a bale on average, depending on variety, demand, etc. If a cattle person ONLY grazes pasture, one can figure 30 to 50 acres per animal unit. However, larger producers rotate animals from pasture to early wheat grazing, to grazing Sorgham fields after hay cuttings. The rest of the producers feed hay several months a year, along with mineral supplements and range cubes for extra protein. Small squares of hay range between about $5. and $8. a bale (ave. 60# per bale), depending on variety. Weed free, heavily fertilized hay is always at premium price.

At OUR operation, we do intensive stocking rate with our Registered Longhorns, do small pasture rotation as available, and feed high protein 12 to 16% bermuda hay and also some alfalfa. We feed hay year around. We use high quality specially formulated minerals. We do not feed range cubes since we have a "grass fed" operation per USDA standards.

 

[spinandslide]

I think in our area its 30 acres per head of cattle..quite a shellshock for my husband, who grew up ranching in Hawaii..where it was 2 acres per head.

We are utterly blessed to have irrigated land..our goal it to divide our pasture into quarters, with a central corral..we can rotationaly graze the quarters and irrigate the sides the cattle are not on..during the spring and summer..Not having to rely on mother nature brings peace of mind in both grazing and also our hay production.

I know many other hay producers who will graze their cattle on their hayfields in the "off" months..

Dryland hay suffers each year..we have sometimes gotten up to 4 cuts off of our coastal field..dryland is LUCKY to get 2.

Hay is a reality during the winter however...Rounds run anywhere from $35 to $65 each...

Yes, Wichita Falls has LOTS of wheat..just saw the combines starting to harvest it this past weekend..most guys baling theres have done so already..you head east of here and all you'll see is wheat rounds.

 

[chippie]

Heck-ti-doodle. if you drove on 287, you went past my oldest daughter's place. I love the county there.

 

[traderaaron]

If you think Texas panhandle is dry come to s.e. Colorado, we are blessed if we get 13-14 inches of precipitation in a year.

However, we feed no hay unless the snow would get deep and that is rare, the cows get a little fat into the early winter if we had the late summer rain to grow grass. It is actually very good wintering country for a cow if you get those late summer 2-3" rains as we rarely get deep snows.

You would be amazed at how much grass can grow if you just get a little rain every now and then. Year round grazing stocking rate would be 40-70 acres.

This year I am running about a pair to every 20-25 acres for spring-September.

 

[andybob]

What else grows in the different climatic regeons, trees/bushes that can be browsed or produce edible seedpods, legumes and other herbs? Do any of these cover periods when grass and clovers are dormant?

 

[Caustic Burno]

I would be interested to compare how the southern states cope with winter feeding with how we grazed in the summer rainfall bushveld where our winter dry season is seven months, with prolonged droughts common. By the mid 70's we were using a rotational grazing system developed by Alan Savory, native grass and browse was managed with low maintenance native cattle with only mineral suppliments, incorporating wildlife management to optimise the use of all available forage, supplying the venison export market from an annual winter cull.

In my area our short winter is rough on a cow due to them being very wet. Whole pile of problems brown stomach worms, liver flukes, hoof rot etc to guard against. Hay consumption is high for such a short winter as cows spend much of the time standing in rain at 35 to 40 degs. takes a lot of energy in these times. We are blessed we only have a couple of months of this. The amazing thing is to watch the hay consumption go down when the temp falls below 32 and they can dry out.

 

[andybob]

Caustic, it seems you need to develop an F1 damline for your area, a cross with your Brahman or similar southern adapted breed and Galloway to give the coat for winter, a 25% Galloway would probably work better, giving enough coat for the worst of the winter, and shedding clean for the hot weather. What opinions do other cattlemen have on developing crossbreeds rather than composites to address unique local conditions?

 

[Caustic Burno]

Caustic, it seems you need to develop an F1 damline for your area, a cross with your Brahman or similar southern adapted breed and Galloway to give the coat for winter, a 25% Galloway would probably work better, giving enough coat for the worst of the winter, and shedding clean for the hot weather. What opinions do other cattlemen have on developing crossbreeds rather than composites to address unique local conditions?

We have developed one called Tigers they will eat you alive, can raise a calf on barb wire and briars. They have two well known traits fight or flight. There is no finer momma cow than a F-1 Hereford/Brimmer cross. The second one we developed is either tied or runs a close second is Brangus. Tigers come to the pen with the fuse lit Brangus come toting a box of matches.

 

[cypressfarms]

Caustic, it seems you need to develop an F1 damline for your area, a cross with your Brahman or similar southern adapted breed and Galloway to give the coat for winter, a 25% Galloway would probably work better, giving enough coat for the worst of the winter, and shedding clean for the hot weather. What opinions do other cattlemen have on developing crossbreeds rather than composites to address unique local conditions?

We have developed one called Tigers they will eat you alive, can raise a calf on barb wire and briars. They have two well known traits fight or flight. There is no finer momma cow than a F-1 Hereford/Brimmer cross. The second one we developed is either tied or runs a close second is Brangus. Tigers come to the pen with the fuse lit Brangus come toting a box of matches.

The best one is a baldy made by crossing a brangus with a hereford. That will be a good mama, a good steer, or anything else you need. Some people around here call them "super baldies". They have slightly more ear than a normal baldy due to the brangus blood. I think crossing a braford with a brangus would give too much ear, but jmho.

 

[MF135]

Caustic, it seems you need to develop an F1 damline for your area, a cross with your Brahman or similar southern adapted breed and Galloway to give the coat for winter, a 25% Galloway would probably work better, giving enough coat for the worst of the winter, and shedding clean for the hot weather. What opinions do other cattlemen have on developing crossbreeds rather than composites to address unique local conditions?

We have developed one called Tigers they will eat you alive, can raise a calf on barb wire and briars. They have two well known traits fight or flight. There is no finer momma cow than a F-1 Hereford/Brimmer cross. The second one we developed is either tied or runs a close second is Brangus. Tigers come to the pen with the fuse lit Brangus come toting a box of matches.

We'd be hard pressed to find Galloways in this area; not too sure that I'de want to either. I can't help but smile when I hear them grey, floppy- eared cows called "brimmers." I've been all over the country and only in good ol' east Texas do I hear em called that... There's just something down-home about it. I really like the super baldies, the F1 brangus X hereford. If I could find a Hereford bull that would consistently throw Black"baldies" I'de jump all over it. There are just too many cases of them throwin red baldies or black/red motley faced calves for my liking.

 

[MF135]

How would a F1 Brangus X F1 Hereford have any more ear than either alone?

 

[andybob]

Sorry to be so long in returning to the thread, I have been tied up with funeral arrangements.
Caustic, I know that your tigerstripes have done well for you over the years, my thinking was that sometimes we need to think outside the box to fine tune our breeding policies, your need for heat resistance is greater than the need for withstanding the three months of inclament weather, so the Brahman content is needed, but a second taurus breed might be worth considering to save on feed costs during the worst of the winter.
MF 135, I agree that Galloways should not be found in your climatic zone, I am a believer in using adapted breeds for any given environment, in a commercial herd percentages of other breeds can be incorporated in a crossbreeding program, possibly by using composites rather than pure non adapted breeds, Galloway carry far too much hair even in summer, so a cross for southern states would need to be with a smooth haired breed to ensure a good hair shed in warm weather.
Crossing composites such as Brangus to Bos Taurus breeds does reduce the "ear" further, I crossed Brangus with Tuli to reduce "ear" without compromising the heat tolerance, when crossed to Angus or Gelbveih as a terminal, there was almost no ear, and would have passed for CAB if I wasn't direct selling.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Actually Cypress hit the nail on the head as to what I consider the optimum cow and that is the super baldie. Brangus/Hereford cross good momma's raise a great calf in our enviroment and are not slap ass crazy.
When the Winnie Auction was still going used to go down there from time to time to watch the sale, they had a heck of a cage around the sale arena. Those boys would bring in those Tiger girls and calfs which all looked good but the calfs had never seen a man before they were penned and the cows only maybe twice a year, it was a heck of a show.
Now those purebred bulls that came in from work in that salt grass country looked like hammered damit.
Times have changed a lot since I started messing with these hateful beast, I remember when a cow in that country couldn't survive totally on there own they died. I can remember riding with one of my old mentors and him saying boy that old cow ain't going to make it this winter.

 

[melking]

sorry, but what is "ear"?

 

[andybob]

sorry, but what is "ear"?

Brahman cattle and their composites, have, in common with other Bos Indicus breeds, large ears which help in heat dissipation.
While this is a desireable trait in itself from an adaptation to heat trait, buyers in the USA discriminate against cattle with large ears, and good quality Brahman crosses fetch a lower price than small eared breeds. This practice is not followed in any other country that I know of, and when I enquired why this discrimination is practiced, my ranching friends told me it was because they can!

 

[TexasBred]

sorry, but what is "ear"?

Brahman cattle and their composites, have, in common with other Bos Indicus breeds, large ears which help in heat dissipation.
While this is a desireable trait in itself from an adaptation to heat trait, buyers in the USA discriminate against cattle with large ears, and good quality Brahman crosses fetch a lower price than small eared breeds. This practice is not followed in any other country that I know of, and when I enquired why this discrimination is practiced, my ranching friends told me it was because they can!

But this only occurs in certain markets within the US. In this area a cow/calf with "a little bit of ear" brings a pretty good premium as do purebred brahmans IF you can find them.