Purebred Angus bulls without papers

[Dave]

Over the years I have bought a lot of pure bred Angus bulls that were AI sons. But I have never owned a papered bull. Off the top of my head I have used AI sons of Image Maker, Bismark, Mytty In Focus, New Day 454, Bando 414 (?), Rito 616, Rito 707, and others that I can't remember who their sires were. I had a good relationship with the man I purchased from. He only had so many bulls available. All of the AI sired bulls were marked as such and they were all half brothers by the bull he had used that year. I also bought some bull bred yearling bulls from him that were SimmAngus. They preformed great too. Only in the last few years did any of them cost over $2000.

 

[Midtenn]

Branded, we are small but all our bulls are AI sired and bring 2000-3000 depending on age and depending some on DNA results. All our sales are with papers, DNA test, defect free, and good BSE. And our bulls look the part too, heavy weaning and yearling weights, good feet, the whole package. If you can sale bulls without all that for $2000 more power to ya. We can't do it here.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

I guess I had a plan of efforts prior to becoming a poster here. Maybe that is because I have, as a boss used to say "born at night but not last night" background of not being a new guy in the sale issue. If you dislike the practices of the local yokel cattlemen and cattlewomen then for goodness sake, don't fake a smile and try to sell them anything. With your superiority of breeding knowledge and cattle genetics, set a base sale price of $10,000 or more to let folks know what they are offered are rare and unique. That way you could cut all natural bull calves, cut half of the AI bull calves that are in the lower 50% ratio and merely sell the best of the best. But if all of the neighbors are starving cows, melting bulls, only getting 3 years out of a bull, buying $1000 sale barn cull bulls and such, where will you ever find a market? It sounds like you are raising the cattle you want in an area (state) that does not have advanced cattle savvy. I'm just going on the things you write.

To be honest, I've been to KY, have genetics and cattle from KY, have directed folks to go and buy there in KY and know some good guys there with good Angus and other breeds. To always downplay and dis the customer is not a great sales effort. Just my sorry opinion again. What I heard was, "The customer is always right". ;-)

If the customer was always right in KY, I would breed double digit CED, 50-60 pound calves and call them all "curve benders"

As for starving cattle, the local Lexington news channel interviewed a farmer in Bourbon county who was liquidating his whole herd and said his friends were following suit, why? He couldn't afford to feed them due to inclement weather. Sh...ty excuse don't you think, how about poor planning instead, oh that doesn't sound as good as it's the fault of Mother Nature. People in my county are liquidating quickly as well. I guess the strategy is sell low, buy high.

You have mentioned before how you have been outbid at auctions. I actually had you in mind with this post, I thought $2000 purebreds would appeal to bargain hunters like yourself. I didn't have any idea it would offend you.

I can't say I have achieved superiority in Angus breeding, but I'm not exactly at the bottom of the totem pole either. In fact I just had an SAV Elation daughter born a few hours ago, the 1st in the state of Kentucky for that matter, none are even DNA proven parentage in AAA yet, zippo! I didn't buy it, I bred it. I worked for that calf, nothing handed to me. As for Elation he should garner approval from a purist like you, I'm sure you approve of the Emulation line.

Some bigger named breeders that lurk this site and ""never"""or seldom post..for the exact thing your doing.. Letting your temper take over.and don't want to tarnish their reputation... and then you have the potential customers that may be watching you..and change their view on purchasing from you in the future..this is a great place too learn and see what cattlemen like, and want..it gives you ideas to work with,or throw away....free advise..might be worthless, but it's free..

 

[littletom]

I have a question, or more like an informal survey. Many times, almost weekly, I encounter or get a call from people who need a bull, they want an Angus bull, a really good one, but they either cannot or do not want to pay $3k-5k for a registered bull or even more for A.I. sons. We have a short conversation and then they are on their merry way. They don't get a bull, and I don't get a sale.

Now as you guys may know from the short time I've been on here, I breed only registered Angus cattle. There are no commercial cattle on our operation, and 90% of the females are AI'd. This might mean something to other Angus breeders or to someone that is seeking a bull for a specific purpose, but to many people I speak with, it doesn't mean jack sh..t. They just want a bull to get the job done, they don't want any issues with him, and they want him cheap. They don't care about papers because they will never be transferring registration or joining AAA. They know they want black calves because that's what they will typically make the most money on when they take cattle to the stockyards.

Considering what I have said above, is it worth taking sons of top AI sires like SAV President, Baldridge Colonel, SAV International, and so on, use those sons on older cows, or the bottom 25% in terms of EPD's or non AI daughters, get bulls from them and sell those bulls for $2k with no registration papers, no genetic tests, and no BSE at 12 months? Basically, no guarantees of any kind. The bull buyer would get a cheap purebred Angus bull out of a registered cow and sire, AND they would have a grandson of an exceptional AI sire. The bulls would be sold as yearlings, they would have received a very limited grain ration, and would have been developed mostly on low quality hay or grass, not much more. I'll recap, no guarantees other than the fact that they came from top pedigrees. It would basically be a Cadillac for the price of an entry level Chevy.

I'm sure other registered producers in KY would not be too happy about this, because it will dilute their advantage in the business, but I think it's more practical than steering these animals and the demand is clearly strong. I know you may think I'm obnoxious when I say this, but these bulls would probably exceed most of what you see at registered sales for far less cost and would ultimately help the small producers improve their herd, which is a win. The risk they run however by NOT paying for the whole ************* package is a potentially sterile bull, no registration, no EPD information, no knowledge of whether it's terminal or calving ease, basically nothing more than its guaranteed to be purebred Angus from registered Angus sire and dams. I think many people would be fine with that around here. They buy mystery bulls every day.

They would be sold under a different company, because I would never stamp our brand on the product, that is only for our registered animals from AI or ET. If a buyer was uncomfortable with the mystery bull, they could always pay up for the higher quality direct AI son and have all the information he or she could ever want on a bull.

Would like your feedback, good, bad, and of course the UGLY!

Branded, with all due respect, it is my befief that you are underestimating many registered Angus producers. There are quite a few in this area, that sell bulls sired by current AI sires as well as some ET calves, in the $2000-$3000 range. Not all of those bulls are produced on minimal quality hay and nutrition. If the breeder is wise and most are, a BSE will be performed before the bull changes hands. Most will register their bulls, the only caveat that I often see is that DNA testing isnt always done, but in some situations it is. The reality is we ( you and I ) are in areas where it is extremely hard to make those high end sales to commercial breeders. You have obviously broken through and to that I can say congratulations. There are a range of commercial breeders just as there are a range of registered. Some will want to go the higher route countinmg on a percieved better investment, if they can justify it. Others see no need to do that with the limited marketing options they have. My self being a former registered breeder, I like to have a registered bull as I think it does give some record or credibility if you will to the calves or bred females. Whether that is paid attention to at sale time by prospective feeder calf buyers is very unlikely.
There is a market for cheaply raised unregistered bulls, but I truly believe it is getting less and less over time because of the fact that there are quite a few registered Angus bulls available for that around $2000-$3000 range.

Nail on head

 

[mrvictordomino]

I am always amazed with the assumption that A.I. sired calves are automatically superior. I do understand the benefits for A.I. one being that you can use a superior sire without having to layout the high cost of purchase. What I don't understand is why someone who has a really top cow herd would not use a A.I. sired calf out of one of their top cows naturally in their own herd. I also wonder why more breeders, and there are many, don't use any of their own breeding, especially if they have the numbers of females that would allow them to do so. I see this within all breeds even some pretty "big" named outfits.
Why would someone select a bull from someone who does not use any of the ones they produce? Too many registered herds
are comprised of cattle sired by bulls they purchased or used A.I. and out of cows that were not bred by them either. This is not a program. For the record, the last Angus bull I purchased to do some cross breeding was not an A.I. sired calf. He was in a pen with A.I. sired calves and was the highest priced bull in the pen. Not all A.I. calves are the best.

 

[Bestoutwest]

You can buy a good registered bull for $2k in Georgia if you look around a little. Tennessee Tuxedo has a couple of good $2k Angus bulls for sale.

Yeah, but are they "superior?"

 

[wbvs58]

I think the ones by the homebred cleanup bull are usually the youngest in a group of calves, not conceived until after a couple of rounds of AI so at weaning they do not stand out as the pick of the calves. In their 2nd year they seem to catch up and are on a more level playing field with their peers. But the perception sticks with them that they are not as good as the AI sired calves. You just have to keep an open mind.

Ken

 

[Bright Raven]

1. I do understand the benefits for A.I. one being that you can use a superior sire without having to layout the high cost of purchase.

2. What I don't understand is why someone who has a really top cow herd would not use a A.I. sired calf out of one of their top cows naturally in their own herd.

3. I also wonder why more breeders, and there are many, don't use any of their own breeding, especially if they have the numbers of females that would allow them to do so.

Worth listing these 3 points and repeating!

The only thing I would add is that you don't have to be a big outfit for these points to have value.

Number 1. I raise Simmental and I can access superior AI sires and match them to my cows without the high cost of a bull purchase. I can even tailor an AI sire to a cow to give me the nice Blaze face that sells so well. Or to accentuate a trait that needs improvement. For example, if a cow needs more rib, I can "beef" up that trait in the calf by fitting the AI sire to her.

Number 2. I have built a very small herd of cows from ONLY the best Simmental breeders. If I ever want/need a walking bull, why on earth would I purchase one? When I can pick out the best of the best cows and breed her specifically to an AI sire I like!!!

Number 3. Does not apply specifically to me because I am totally AI but if i had more cows and reached the threshold where I was struggling to get all the cows bred in my breeding window, I would use my own bull, AI sired, out of one of my cows.

After all, how can you sell bulls to other producers if your own bulls are not good enough? I suppose there are reasons but you make a great point.

 

[Ebenezer]

1. I do understand the benefits for A.I. one being that you can use a superior sire without having to layout the high cost of purchase.

2. What I don't understand is why someone who has a really top cow herd would not use a A.I. sired calf out of one of their top cows naturally in their own herd.

3. I also wonder why more breeders, and there are many, don't use any of their own breeding, especially if they have the numbers of females that would allow them to do so.

Worth listing these 3 points and repeating!

The only thing I would add is that you don't have to be a big outfit for these points to have value.

Number 1. I raise Simmental and I can access superior AI sires and match them to my cows without the high cost of a bull purchase. I can even tailor an AI sire to a cow to give me the nice Blaze face that sells so well. Or to accentuate a trait that needs improvement. For example, if a cow needs more rib, I can "beef" up that trait in the calf by fitting the AI sire to her.

Number 2. I have built a very small herd of cows from ONLY the best Simmental breeders. If I ever want/need a walking bull, why on earth would I purchase one? When I can pick out the best of the best cows and breed her specifically to an AI sire I like!!!

Number 3. Does not apply specifically to me because I am totally AI but if i had more cows and reached the threshold where I was not getting all the cows bred in my breeding window, I would use my own bull, AI sired, out of one of my cows.

After all, how can you sell bulls to other producers if your own bulls are not good enough? I suppose there are reasons but you make a great point.

Danny has a source herd and not a multiplier herd. That is a huge difference.

 

[Ebenezer]

I thought $2000 purebreds would appeal to bargain hunters like yourself. I didn't have any idea it would offend you.

You are a poor guesser of character. I am not into bargain cattle. If I were I would buy highly promoted semen from big names and act like I knew a lot about the cattle from the day they were born.

I can't say I have achieved superiority in Angus breeding, but I'm not exactly at the bottom of the totem pole either. In fact I just had an SAV Elation daughter born a few hours ago, the 1st in the state of Kentucky for that matter, none are even DNA proven parentage in AAA yet, zippo! I didn't buy it, I bred it. I worked for that calf, nothing handed to me. As for Elation he should garner approval from a purist like you, I'm sure you approve of the Emulation line.

Wrong again. Try a ouija board.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

You can buy a good registered bull for $2k in Georgia if you look around a little. Tennessee Tuxedo has a couple of good $2k Angus bulls for sale.

Yeah, but are they "superior?"

No but they are adequate.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Not starting anything, this is what turns so many people off about Angus. This thread is a perfect demonstration IMO.
It's not the cattle but the breeders.
My question in all sincerity is why do they have their noses turned up so high. Y'all are not saving us from ourselves as you seem to think.

Nuff said

 

[Bright Raven]

Not starting anything, this is what turns so many people off about Angus. This thread is a perfect demonstration IMO.
It's not the cattle but the breeders.
My question in all sincerity is why do they have their noses turned up so high. Y'all are not saving us from ourselves as you seem to think.

Nuff said

I assume you are directing that at Branded. Seems to me even if you are correct, that makes this personal.

Be that as it may be, do you think that Angus breeders are the only ones afflicted with this ailment?

 

[True Grit Farms]

Not starting anything, this is what turns so many people off about Angus. This thread is a perfect demonstration IMO.
It's not the cattle but the breeders.
My question in all sincerity is why do they have their noses turned up so high. Y'all are not saving us from ourselves as you seem to think.

Nuff said

I assume you are directing that at Branded. Seems to me even if you are correct, that makes this personal.

Be that as it may be, do you think that Angus breeders are the only ones afflicted with this ailment?

Sure seems that way, but some of the Simmental folks are beginning to drink the same Kool Aid.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Not starting anything, this is what turns so many people off about Angus. This thread is a perfect demonstration IMO.
It's not the cattle but the breeders.
My question in all sincerity is why do they have their noses turned up so high. Y'all are not saving us from ourselves as you seem to think.

Nuff said

I assume you are directing that at Branded. Seems to me even if you are correct, that makes this personal.

Be that as it may be, do you think that Angus breeders are the only ones afflicted with this ailment?

No I wasn't, I see you are in stirring mode again. It is the normal digression of nearly every Angus thread.
Everyone likes their own breed just most don't think one size fits all.
Secondly don't assume for me, if I am calling someone out it will be just like I did you here. Nothing personal between me and Branded.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Interesting

 

[Bright Raven]

Not starting anything, this is what turns so many people off about Angus. This thread is a perfect demonstration IMO.
It's not the cattle but the breeders.
My question in all sincerity is why do they have their noses turned up so high. Y'all are not saving us from ourselves as you seem to think.

Nuff said

I assume you are directing that at Branded. Seems to me even if you are correct, that makes this personal.

Be that as it may be, do you think that Angus breeders are the only ones afflicted with this ailment?

No I wasn't, I see you are in stirring mode again. It is the normal digression of nearly every Angus thread.
Everyone likes their own breed just most just don't think one size fits all.
Secondly don't assume for me, if I am calling someone out it will be just like I did you here.

I don't feel called out. I only wondered who the snooty Angus breeder or breeders were.

It does seem like everyone wants all of us to practice their breeding methods. Some seem to think if we don't use the practices they advocate, we are inferior.

 

[True Grit Farms]

I am always amazed with the assumption that A.I. sired calves are automatically superior. I do understand the benefits for A.I. one being that you can use a superior sire without having to layout the high cost of purchase. What I don't understand is why someone who has a really top cow herd would not use a A.I. sired calf out of one of their top cows naturally in their own herd. I also wonder why more breeders, and there are many, don't use any of their own breeding, especially if they have the numbers of females that would allow them to do so. I see this within all breeds even some pretty "big" named outfits.
Why would someone select a bull from someone who does not use any of the ones they produce? Too many registered herds
are comprised of cattle sired by bulls they purchased or used A.I. and out of cows that were not bred by them either. This is not a program. For the record, the last Angus bull I purchased to do some cross breeding was not an A.I. sired calf. He was in a pen with A.I. sired calves and was the highest priced bull in the pen. Not all A.I. calves are the best.

Most of us are just multipliers and riding the back of breeders like you. Thanks for the post Mr Danny and saying what most of us have been trying to for pages.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Raven wrote
"It does seem like everyone wants all of us to practice their breeding methods. Some seem to think if we don't use the practices they advocate, we are inferior."


This is what comes out of most discussions as mentioned above. I run Angus and Hereford/Brahman genetics. Do they work every where for everyone of course not. Do I think your cattle are crap again of course not. Why is it most registered breeders look at the commercial cattlemen with such disdain. That's the way it comes out.
I have played this game on both sides of the fence and never figured this one out.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Methinks thou dost protest too much.