Purebred Angus bulls without papers

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Back to the original post... there is of course a market for bulls without papers. I think you mistakenly believe papers make a bull better, and I would dispute that. As a little commercial guy, I try to buy the best bulls. That means that often times the bulls I bring home do not have papers. Often times they are crossbred.
But if you are going to keep bulls of lesser quality and market them as "not my best work but better than what you have", I don't think it's a good idea.
 
Silver said:
Back to the original post... there is of course a market for bulls without papers. I think you mistakenly believe papers make a bull better, and I would dispute that. As a little commercial guy, I try to buy the best bulls. That means that often times the bulls I bring home do not have papers. Often times they are crossbred.
But if you are going to keep bulls of lesser quality and market them as "not my best work but better than what you have", I don't think it's a good idea.

Bingo
 
This thread has gone to "heII in a Walmart shopping bag". From here on out, seems to me the topic is open to anything we want to post.

So following Ebenezer's cue, let's talk about happiness.

1950...1955...1958... 1968...1998..2008

All were happy years for me. I also enjoy being a shyster. I enjoy using different AI sires and seeing the results. I was out there this morning in the sanctuary and I had about a dozen calves,getting into the 500 to 600 pound range, encircling me. Reminds me of a 6 week old litter of puppies.

I am pretty happy.
 
Everyone is invited to tell us how happy they are. If you are not happy, then start your own "unhappy" thread.
 
Silver said:
Back to the original post... there is of course a market for bulls without papers. I think you mistakenly believe papers make a bull better, and I would dispute that. As a little commercial guy, I try to buy the best bulls. That means that often times the bulls I bring home do not have papers. Often times they are crossbred.
But if you are going to keep bulls of lesser quality and market them as "not my best work but better than what you have", I don't think it's a good idea.

I have been at bulls sales and seen commercial cattle men handed papers on bulls they bought. Only to have the papers left laying on the floor. If you don't raise register cattle papers are good for starting fires and wiping with. They only paper I would be interested in would be the ones showing how well the calves which you retained ownership on did at the feedlot and the packing plant. To a commercial guy everything else is just fluff.
 
I have transferred registration and requested a paper certificate be sent to the buyer on every animal I have sold.

Every buyer has made mention of transferring registration into their name and getting a paper certificate. I have actually had a couple who said the BSE didn't matter but they wanted the papers. Now that is a strange one.
 
Dogs and Cows said:
************* said:
jehosofat said:
Branded, I'm just a small commercial guy, I have two decent bulls, and am in the market for a jam up black bull. If you offered me the best bull on your place for 1500 bucks, I probably wouldn't let you hold 1500 dollars of my money. I might have paid you 5K for a good one before reading your stuff for the last month.
You might raise good bulls, but if you're on here trying to sell bulls, I'm letting you know that you're a sheitty salesman.

All I have to say to this reply is WOW!!!

Branded, do you know Mike Keeney and his cattle...he is in KY if I'm not mistaken...beautiful females, very very maternal...directly from Larry Leonhardt stock. How about Wye Angus...you did mention you talking to Eddie Draper in another thread? These are both very good programs. Pretty much the polar opposite of what you are talking about. I don't have a dog in the fight...and am not saying you are wrong...but the way you explain things these two programs are on the wrong side of history. Even though they have been around for very much longer than you. What are your comments related to programs along these lines???

I want to cross Claymont of Wye to an SAV President daughter to see what will happen. I will probably do it too! Just not on a large scale. If that tells you what I think of those programs. As for Mike, no I have not met him.

Let me be clear on something. I don't care how you are doing your thing as long as you have some passion and drive about how you are doing it and want to improve. Who the heck wants to be in the same place and rest on laurels? That is a recipe for disaster, and it's boring!

As I have said, multiple times, last night, we had a VERY SPECIAL calf born, but instead of celebrating and saying "Well that's it, done, can't get any better than that" I'm saying "I wonder what issues she will have" or "Now I wonder if I cross her out with VAR Power Play, what will result from it" That calf last night is quickly becoming yesterdays news. Heck I don't even get excited anymore about my President and Raindance calves that are running around everywhere. My thoughts are on SAV America 8018 daughters. Oh yeah! America daughters my friends.

I know for a fact that there are really good breeders in KY, but why in the h...ll are most of their bulls being sold to out of state buyers, at least the really top bulls? I've never seen someone in my county, which is a big beef producer for a small state, I think 20k head of beef cattle here, NOT buy the #1 bull at the Boyd Sale? It's almost always an out of state buyer or Genex or something, but never a local. There is an entity here in Fleming County that buys some VERY EXPENSIVE SAV stock from SAV, literally money to burn, but they aren't buying local. Why, because most of it's not worth mentioning at best. Ask Charlie Boyd if he would choose his next sire for the 2020 sale from the "friendliest good old boy in Fleming or Mason county" and his expression would say it all. No, he's using Connealy or some other top program, and doing very well I might add by doing so.

In no way do I have superior animals, but I do breed to superior sires, and then rinse and repeat, stacking it over and over. What is the goal? Well, I can't write a check for a $750k cow or a $1.5 million dollar sire, but I can buy embryos and buy semen and make it happen via another route, called hard work. I don't get mad at Rolls Royce and drive a Hyundai in defiance, then tell myself it's the SAME vehicle at the end of the day, because you know and I know it's NOT. I say to myself, "darn it, I hope I live to see the day that I can buy a $400k Rolls Royce SUV and throw hay in the back and feed my cattle" with it" Yes, I do say that to myself! Laugh, but I know that if I plopped your azzes in a Rolls SUV and drove you around Branded looking at cattle, that many of you would not complain. C'mon! I know you are secretly agreeing with me. Hehe!
 
ohiosteve said:
callmefence said:

....and condescending.

Why? Because I'm telling you things straight and you don't want to hear it? I don't have six pack abs, I can't run a marathon either, but do I get mad at the people that do? Nope? I'm just not willing to put the work in to achieve what they did to get those results.
 
Red Bull Breeder said:
If I was as knee deep in sav genetics as you are and Kelly Schaff made you cry I would rethink what I was doing. Only numbers that count is what the scales say and the amount of dollars left in your pocket at the year end.

You take things too literally. What I meant was that my cows are a far cry from Blackcap May 4136, but they are improving quickly. It's not just SAV, I'm sure my cows are NO Coleman Donna, or Baldridge Isabel. But they aren't too shabby either.
 
sim.-ang.king said:
Bright Raven said:
Everyone is invited to tell us how happy they are. If you are not happy, then start your own "unhappy" thread.

Thread hijacking is bad mojo.

Forgive me. I am overwhelmed with joy. We are having a rare day. NO RAIN. Can you believe there is actually a sun? I am grilling a rib steak and watching am old show "Breaking Bad". I forgot how good that is.
 
Why not? You claim to have been breeding to the best for years. If they were truly the best you should have been able to produce there equal by now. If you have not then you need to ask yourself why not. See the problem?
 
Branded why are you of an ''all or none'' mind set? If someone makes a moderate response you seem to have an extreme reply. You never ask about a program or cattle it boils down to post there reg. no so we can look at there ''papers''. Have you ever thought of starting a ''fantasy cattle game''. Fantasy football seems to have a following. :nod:
 
Nesikep said:
There are many divides... Commercial and "hobby", Commercial and seedstock, big vs small operations, big vs small cattle, AI vs bull, black vs red, etc

While it's certainly nice to be able to pick an semen from a million dollar AI bull that will improve certain features of a cow, it's no less of a feat to find an affordable walking bull that will improve the herd as a whole.

Someone here was going to visit the Lents herd.. who was that? From what I saw on youtube which may not be representative of the whole herd, I would NEVER buy a bull or semen from them at any price with the udders those cows had.
I also saw some pictures posted by someone (can't remember who) where they had two good animals in it out of 6.. 4 were totally hatchet arsed despite being presumably well fed.
Then there are others that are good cattle, but just not what I strive for.. nothing wrong with that. I love Backbone ranch's cows, and here's a pic of a beauty of a shorthorn cow I'd be proud of having in my pasture

I've always been interested in Shorthorns and their history, but more than a handful of people, especially on here, told me that if I want to get the lowest prices possible, get involved with Shorthorns, in particular, cross them with Angus. I tend to disagree, because I have done research on the beef quality, and I would say an Angus/Shorthorn cross would produce superior marbling and taste.

As for the Youtube videos, I agree completely with you. I did not like those videos, but I had several people trying to buy our remaining Stone Gate bred bulls and they wanted video, Youtube was the easiest way to get it to them. I've got an SAV Harvestor bull coming up on a year, and I will get him cleaned up, put him on LOW GRASS, and shoot a video of him all the way around in 4k, FOR DETAIL! I know you folks love DETAIL! I think when you see him, you will have a different opinion. Would you believe I received calls to buy those bulls on Youtube? People love the low input heifer bulls here, can't get enough of them.

Now as for the females. the one born last night might interest you. Her Dam is mostly from Basin influence and her sire, well he is special. Here are few stats on him.

Sired by Sinclair Emulation XXP, a linebred son of N Bar Emulation EXT, who led the Angus breed in annual registrations for five consecutive years, and ranked in the top 10 Angus sires for nine consecutive years. I guess you could say he was a decent bull. Why would so many people use him otherwise? Right?

His momma is a herd bull producer, earning a weaning ratio of 112 on 4 calves, She ranks as the #2 weaning EPD cow in the SAV herd. second only to her daughter.

Now I have a daughter from this bull, Elation, and granddaughter of what I described above, not to mention her dam has produced some very nice calves for us, including a Baldridge Colonel daughter that is first rate.

How do you think that this new daughter will be garbage? How do you figure that she will not perform? Could it happen, maybe, anything is possible, but she has some good blood in her as insurance. Wouldn't you say? After she has her first calf, I will collect embryos on her and use the "less desirables" you mention as recips. What's wrong with that plan? I see nothing wrong with using big registered mommas as recips. Takes a good cow to raise a good calf.
 
Bright Raven said:
sim.-ang.king said:
Bright Raven said:
Everyone is invited to tell us how happy they are. If you are not happy, then start your own "unhappy" thread.

Thread hijacking is bad mojo.

Forgive me. I am overwhelmed with joy. We are having a rare day. NO RAIN. Can you believe there is actually a sun? I am grilling a rib steak and watching am old show "Breaking Bad". I forgot how good that is.

Oh my! Walter White, my hero! He didn't cook anything that was not the best he could produce, otherwise he would throw it in the trash.

Can you imagine if Walter had been in the Angus business? He would have culled aggressively and steered everything in sight.
 
mwj said:
Branded why are you of an ''all or none'' mind set? If someone makes a moderate response you seem to have an extreme reply. You never ask about a program or cattle it boils down to post there reg. no so we can look at there ''papers''. Have you ever thought of starting a ''fantasy cattle game''. Fantasy football seems to have a following. :nod:

I really am, you nailed it. Never have I looked around, and said to myself "what AVERAGE bull should I breed to this year" How can I produce "moderate" weaning weights. Never had that conversation with myself.

I'm not playing fantasy cattle, I'm buying the semen, and getting my b.tt to work, obtaining the real article. Nothing fantasy when I can reach down and touch it....and feed it....
 
************* said:
Bright Raven said:
Forgive me. I am overwhelmed with joy. We are having a rare day. NO RAIN. Can you believe there is actually a sun? I am grilling a rib steak and watching am old show "Breaking Bad". I forgot how good that is.

Oh my! Walter White, my hero! He didn't cook anything that was not the best he could produce, otherwise he would throw it in the trash.

Can you imagine if Walter had been in the Angus business? He would have culled aggressively and steered everything in sight.

I attended a Geology Reunion at Morehead State University last summer. I was revisiting old times with a colleague. He and I had Organic Chemistry together. Two semesters - Organic I and II. I was asking about Dr. Simon. He told me Dr. Simon was arrested and convicted for cooking dope. As he told me the details, It occurred to me how close the story was to Walter White only Dr. Simon was the real deal. They said his dope was the purest stuff they had ever seen and he was cooking it in the University Chemistry labs.
 
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