protein tub

[snake67]

I regret I made that comment as you cherry picked rather than responding to the entire piece

As I have family in the fish and wildlife biology business I can say that you are correct - but it usually stems from age, injury or an illness if there is feed along side. If there is no feed it will happen as well.

And it is the availability of the feed and the quality of feed that I was making the point about - I somehow think you know that and chose to ignore it

Best to all

Bez

 

[greybeard]

Deer and mice don't give a rat's behind about fences--they'll move where ever a native food source is.

That aside, there's lots to be said for minimum input with cattle. Lots of people around here with 20-30 mommas do nothing but put out a few salt and mineral blocks, enough cubes per week to get them to come to the truck, and just enough hay in the winter to keep them alive. My nearest neighbor is like that. He's had cows for 20 years. Sim cross of some kind. No vaccinations, de-worm only if they get down so bad it is absolutely necessary, no castrations, no ear tags, no branding, no fly control, no shelter except whatever the woods provides, no winter ryegrass, just enough fencing to keep them in (sometimes)--pretty much--nothing. Hell get a $1000 bull and use him till he's dead or can't breed anymore. Keeps 90% of his heifers most years--inbred for 20 years. His adage--"They'll either make it or they won't". And most winters, his herd looks like walking death. I thought sure every blessed one of them was gonna die in 2011's drought, and the following winter. I think he had about 40 head total that winter and he bought 300 small sq bales for the whole bunch. Maybe 10 50lb sacks of cubes the whole winter.

I gave him a tub my cows wouldn't earlier this winter and his emptied it in less than 2 days. I know, because I told him I wanted the empty tub if they ate it and he dropped it off here 2 days later.
And, he makes $$ on them. Not a lot a lot of $, but even if he loses one during the year, he has nothing in them so whatever he does get at the barn every year for his calves............. is all profit. It's a sideline for him--not a business but still he does keep track of expenses and profit and he makes several thousand $ every year plus his property tax exemption.
[shrug/]

I just can't do it--can't stand to look at poor animals and I worry about blackleg and pinkeye so I vaccinate, deworm, use fly control and everything else I can do. He's a nice guy, will give ya the shirt off his back but I'm glad I don't share a fence with him.

 

[snake67]

Deer and mice don't give a rat's behind about fences--they'll move where ever a native food source is.

That aside, there's lots to be said for minimum input with cattle. Lots of people around here with 20-30 mommas do nothing but put out a few salt and mineral blocks, enough cubes per week to get them to come to the truck, and just enough hay in the winter to keep them alive. My nearest neighbor is like that. He's had cows for 20 years. Sim cross of some kind. No vaccinations, de-worm only if they get down so bad it is absolutely necessary, no castrations, no ear tags, no branding, no fly control, no shelter except whatever the woods provides, no winter ryegrass, just enough fencing to keep them in (sometimes)--pretty much--nothing. be nice get a $1000 bull and use him till he's dead or can't breed anymore. Keeps 90% of his heifers most years--inbred for 20 years. His adage--"They'll either make it or they won't". And most winters, his herd looks like walking death. I thought sure every blessed one of them was gonna die in 2011's drought, and the following winter. I think he had about 40 head total that winter and he bought 300 small sq bales for the whole bunch. Maybe 10 50lb sacks of cubes the whole winter.

I gave him a tub my cows wouldn't earlier this winter and his emptied it in less than 2 days. I know, because I told him I wanted the empty tub if they ate it and he dropped it off here 2 days later.
And, he makes $$ on them. Not a lot a lot of $, but even if he loses one during the year, he has nothing in them so whatever he does get at the barn every year for his calves............. is all profit. It's a sideline for him--not a business but still he does keep track of expenses and profit and he makes several thousand $ every year plus his property tax exemption.
[shrug/]

I just can't do it--can't stand to look at poor animals and I worry about blackleg and pinkeye so I vaccinate, deworm, use fly control and everything else I can do. He's a nice guy, will give ya the shirt off his back but I'm glad I don't share a fence with him.

Minimum inputs and treating your animals like crap are two entirely different things.

This example you are using is not what we do - I hope you are not thinking we run a similar operation.

We calculate their intake and meet their requirements on a daily basis - so to use this example is not exactly what I am talking about.

I wonder why every time I make these comments - which I have before - people come up with comparisons that are essentially abuse rather than actual animal husbandry.

How many people here actually test all their hay - field by field? I bet not more than 10 - if that.

We systematically soil sample all our fields to figure the requirements for each hay cutting. Yeah - each cutting - because we fertilize after every cut

I know exactly what goes into their bellies every time I dig into the hay pile or put them out in the field with their free choice of round bale grazing. I also know that most on here do not know what is truly going into their cows bellies - they THINK they do. There is a big difference between knowing and thinking you know.

We free choice mineral year round.

There is always water on hand even at 40 below - despite the fact they often do not come for two or three days to drink if there is snow on the ground.

They are not tagged up and they have excellent body condition to make it through the winter with good fur to keep them warm to boot.

In the end I guess the folks on here can pound that expensive feed to their animals and talk about how they got xxx a pound for them at the sale barn.

But in truth they often lose money because they have no idea of the inputs required or the inputs they have spent money on.

Look how many threads on - late breeding, slow breeding back, lost calves, sick animals and the beat goes on. Not all of it - but a huge pile of blame can all go right back to what is going in their bellies.

I can tell you to the penny every year how much we made or lost - and we factor in everything - right down to the new tires we put on the truck.

So - I will step out now - but I will say that when people put out tubs and then ask - "Will my calf get too big during gestation" - it tells me they do not know much about raising animals or feeding them in a cost efficient manner - or even what feed does to a cow and a calf during gestation.

All I am doing is showing people that it can be done - the only real outside expenses that I have that are seldom talked about here are:

Fecal samples - which tells me if I do or do not worm - cost here is about 45 bucks total

Soil sampling for better crop returns on fertilizer usage.

And - feed testing - which we do religiously - at a cost of about 45 bucks per field.

No more from me on this one - the person who started this thread can take the info or leave it - out of this one.

Best to all

Bez

 

[greybeard]

I guess I should have/could have worded the start of that post better. Sounds like I was saying I agreed with my neighbor's way of doing things----I do not. He makes a little $, but at his animal's expense and doesn't make nearly what he could if he would move in to the 20th/21st century.

Minimum inputs and treating your animals like crap are two entirely different things.

This example you are using is not what we do - I hope you are not thinking we run a similar operation.

I Absolutely do not Bez--I've (we've) read enough of your posts to know you have a good profitable operation in every sense of the word. Not wasting money, time or labor. I agree with all of that 100%.

 

[Black and Good]

I don't look at cost only. I look at, what is it doing for my herd? As well as the ability to put a better, healthier product on the ground. I believe the affect of keeping quality tubs out year around pays in general health and keeping out what they may need throughout the year. I've been using Smartlick tubs and the don't eat them all the time only when the need something that's in there. My mineral same way. I use Wind and Rain medicated, add fly in summer. They will pound it then back off. IMHO it's not just about protein that's the easy thing to get into em. B&G
P.S. My cows are spoiled! LOL ;-)

 

[TexasBred]

I regret I made that comment as you cherry picked rather than responding to the entire piece

As I have family in the fish and wildlife biology business I can say that you are correct - but it usually stems from age, injury or an illness if there is feed along side. If there is no feed it will happen as well.

And it is the availability of the feed and the quality of feed that I was making the point about - I somehow think you know that and chose to ignore it

Best to all

Bez

I didn't ignore it at all. Just saw no reason to respond to it. I agree with most of it. Nothing wrong with supplementation when you feel it's necessary. I've bought lower quality hay before because I could save enough on the lower price hay to pay for supplementation and end up with a total diet that was both easier on the pocket book and better for the cattle. There are times when feeding out of a bag, tub or whatever is the thing to do but you don't just do it for the heck of it.

 

[Dave]

My weather sort of dictates over ripe lower quality hay. It is a fact of life in Western Washington. So I generally have to supplement the cow's diet with protein. I have done this in a number of ways. Tubs are at the very bottom of the list. By the pound they cost me four times more than alfalfa, three times more than DDG, and about twice as much as cube in sacks from the feed store. I only use them when I need something to fill in for a short time if I run out of my other source of protein.

 

[TexasBred]

Just got off the phone with a friend that feeds a 28% all natural protein cooked tub. Said he paid $80 for a 200 lb. tub so that's $800 a ton anyway you look at it. A bit much for me.

 

[ousoonerfan22]

We have paid that much for the PVM 28% tubs but they last longer than the rest and the cows like them. That's cheaper than spending $540 to fill up the liquid feeder during the summer when lack of rain causes the grass to dry out and lose it's punch.

 

[TexasBred]

We have paid that much for the PVM 28% tubs but they last longer than the rest and the cows like them. That's cheaper than spending $540 to fill up the liquid feeder during the summer when lack of rain causes the grass to dry out and lose it's punch.

That' $540 probably gets you close to 4000 lbs of feed too. I say feed whatever you want..afterall they ae your cattle and your $$$$. ;-)

 

[ousoonerfan22]

But you don't need that 4000 lbs of feed roasting in 100 degree days especially when the grass greens up after a good rain.

 

[TexasBred]

But you don't need that 4000 lbs of feed roasting in 100 degree days especially when the grass greens up after a good rain.

You might...and if it's roasting that liquid feed it's roasting that lush tender new growth a very few short days after that good rain.

 

[phillip plaisance]

I am looking for some info and advice on protein tubs. I have three cows and 3 heifers and 2 of the cows are within a month of calving. INbetween thanksgiving and x-mas I bought a raglands 200lb tub of 24% protein and I believe had minerals in it. the seven are now done with it.

I am currently feeding first cutting hay which is mostly grass with some clover and alfalfa in it, they have mineral block and free choice mineral in front of them and also receive a min 90 shot pre breeding and again at vaccineation time. The reason I put the tub in there was an article I saw in here about reading there manure piles wheather they where receiving enough protein.

The question I have is would you or does it hurt my breds to have this protein tub, does it make the calve to big? thanks for your time!

 

[rocfarm]

Research I have read said the only external factor that affects calf size is weather-fall born calves are a bit lighter and spring born calves a bit heavier. The main factors affecting birth weight are pretty much all genetic, though.

Nutrition is important, but won't really increase birth size. Has more to do with vigor and health at birth. That said, if your cows are at BCS 5 to 6 and your heifers are 6 or a bit more, I'd just feed to maintain their condition, not add lbs. Over-conditioned cows can also lead to calving problems.

If they've been on tubs and decent hay, I'd say they don't need mineral or vitamin shots, as tubs have all of the essentials. Salt blocks still needed, though.

My understanding, but the old hands might have a different take from real-world experience.

 

[DNelson]

here in North central MN I feed free choice large round grass hay, good protein content of about 16% +/-. when the weather gets cold like around 20 I supplement with about 5 to 7 pounds of 14% grain mix late in the day. this year winter came early and have been feeding grain mix since the first part of November. with temps ranging -20f to - 35f in normal winters I also have a 30% protein tub available then. 3 bred cows and one bull. sold 12 a couple months ago.

 

[rocfarm]

Was surprised how much more protein cattle need when it's cold. I think Texas cattle definitely survive well and even hold their condition on lower quality feed during the winter. I'm happy if my cows get an average of 10% protein total between stockpile and 30% tubs.

I wonder how much weight the North American herd lost during this last cold snap. Must have been quite a few dollars burnt up between the extra feed and the weight lost…

 

[DNelson]

Minimum inputs and treating your animals like crap are two entirely different things.

This example you are using is not what we do - I hope you are not thinking we run a similar operation.

We calculate their intake and meet their requirements on a daily basis - so to use this example is not exactly what I am talking about.

I wonder why every time I make these comments - which I have before - people come up with comparisons that are essentially abuse rather than actual animal husbandry.

How many people here actually test all their hay - field by field? I bet not more than 10 - if that.

We systematically soil sample all our fields to figure the requirements for each hay cutting. Yeah - each cutting - because we fertilize after every cut

I know exactly what goes into their bellies every time I dig into the hay pile or put them out in the field with their free choice of round bale grazing. I also know that most on here do not know what is truly going into their cows bellies - they THINK they do. There is a big difference between knowing and thinking you know.

We free choice mineral year round.

There is always water on hand even at 40 below - despite the fact they often do not come for two or three days to drink if there is snow on the ground.

They are not tagged up and they have excellent body condition to make it through the winter with good fur to keep them warm to boot.

In the end I guess the folks on here can pound that expensive feed to their animals and talk about how they got xxx a pound for them at the sale barn.

But in truth they often lose money because they have no idea of the inputs required or the inputs they have spent money on.

Look how many threads on - late breeding, slow breeding back, lost calves, sick animals and the beat goes on. Not all of it - but a huge pile of blame can all go right back to what is going in their bellies.

I can tell you to the penny every year how much we made or lost - and we factor in everything - right down to the new tires we put on the truck.

So - I will step out now - but I will say that when people put out tubs and then ask - "Will my calf get too big during gestation" - it tells me they do not know much about raising animals or feeding them in a cost efficient manner - or even what feed does to a cow and a calf during gestation.

All I am doing is showing people that it can be done - the only real outside expenses that I have that are seldom talked about here are:

Fecal samples - which tells me if I do or do not worm - cost here is about 45 bucks total

Soil sampling for better crop returns on fertilizer usage.

And - feed testing - which we do religiously - at a cost of about 45 bucks per field.

No more from me on this one - the person who started this thread can take the info or leave it - out of this one.

Best to all

Bez

I also keep track of expenses, and two years of drought kind of wrecked the bottom line. drought resulted in to little hay from my field and cost to buy doubled. Grain mi went from $225/ ton in 2020 to about $350 this year. costs a lot to winter cows here. sold 4 steers by 1/2 and 1/4 in 2020 and this year sold 6 bred heifers and 6 calves so basically starting over, kept three bred cows and original bull with plans to get feeder calves this spring and put on pasture till next December.

 

[Dave]

I put a protein tub in the corral for these light steers. 250 pound tub that was 20%. Been a month and there is still some left. A 20% tub is 50 pounds of protein. 50 pounds spread out on 40 steers over a month. That was a waste of money. Got some green leafy third cutting alfalfa for $286 a ton. I am feeding 5 pounds every third day that works out to $0.24 a day. And it works out to be about 0.333 pounds of protein a day. And that $0.24 is not the real cost because feeding that I feed that much less grass hay which works out to $0.18 a day. So the real cost to me is $0.06 a day. A whole lot cheaper and more reliable source of protein than the tubs.

 

[Brute 23]

I put a protein tub in the corral for these light steers. 250 pound tub that was 20%. Been a month and there is still some left. A 20% tub is 50 pounds of protein. 50 pounds spread out on 40 steers over a month. That was a waste of money. Got some green leafy third cutting alfalfa for $286 a ton. I am feeding 5 pounds every third day that works out to $0.24 a day. And it works out to be about 0.333 pounds of protein a day. And that $0.24 is not the real cost because feeding that I feed that much less grass hay which works out to $0.18 a day. So the real cost to me is $0.06 a day. A whole lot cheaper and more reliable source of protein than the tubs.

Wrong tool for the job. Don't blame the tool for operator error.

 

[Rmc]

The cold is why many in the intermountain west feed alfalfa. Many on here mock the use of alfalfa . But alfalfa hay has many documented advantages over grass type hay's. But I think the one that gets overlooked the most is the speed at which the energy is available to cattle. Alfalfa is digested and available in half the time as grass type feeds . It also has many more nutrients that aren't available in grass type hays. This is very important to pregnant cows. Alfalfa Leeds to better vigor in newborn calves as well as higher percentage of breeding back sooner.
Tubs have their place. They are cost effective in the fall/early winter if you have a lot of standing forage with low nutrients levels. Tubs will increase consumption of standing dry forage .
But in cold weather alfalfa is far more cost effective.