StrojanHerefords
Well-known member
Is there a way to determine if an animal is whether an animal could use more protein in their diet or whether they could benefit from added energy?
Protein or Energy
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Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
?? - the consistency of their manure tells you if they don't have enough protein or too much.
Depends what you are trying to achieve with your animal. Raising/growing breeding stock? Finishing out butcher animal?
Depends what you are trying to achieve with your animal. Raising/growing breeding stock? Finishing out butcher animal?
If you google around a little on how to judge a cows diet by the cow pie it will have a lot of article and pics. Some one use to post a good one on here.
StrojanHerefords
Well-known member
I asked this question with backgrounding calves in mind but it applies to whatever class of animals needs supplementation.
What are you expecting gains to be?
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Again, depends on their consistency of their manure. Protein is generally the most expensive "feed' for cattle. I don't believe in "backgrounding" calves, but then again, I have calves that are big. "Generally" people "background" calves because they are too small to go on a feedlot. People take a small weaned calf and let it age to a yearling to reach a decent weight for a feedlot.
IMHO - total waste of time. But, if you have small weaned calves, this might be an option. If you fed them properly for growth, you would have a much better product to sell.
You can feed a slightly higher amount of protein and lower energy if your goal is to GROW frame on your cattle vs trying to get them to an end goal faster.
If you KNOW the % protein of your feed, you want about a 14% ration (hay and grain) for small calves 450-700#. Slowly decreasing the protein as they grow. When they are around 800-850#, they only need around 12.5%. Finishing, they only need around 10.5 - 11.5%. The amount of energy (corn) will determine how FAST they reach these weights.
My replacement heifers are around 650-700# at weaning. You should start cattle off with no more than 1% of their BW in grain. I don't need to worry about that because I start them off at 5#/hd/day and keep them on that amount up to breeding age. Their hay is generally 15-16% - full fed.
IMHO - total waste of time. But, if you have small weaned calves, this might be an option. If you fed them properly for growth, you would have a much better product to sell.
You can feed a slightly higher amount of protein and lower energy if your goal is to GROW frame on your cattle vs trying to get them to an end goal faster.
If you KNOW the % protein of your feed, you want about a 14% ration (hay and grain) for small calves 450-700#. Slowly decreasing the protein as they grow. When they are around 800-850#, they only need around 12.5%. Finishing, they only need around 10.5 - 11.5%. The amount of energy (corn) will determine how FAST they reach these weights.
My replacement heifers are around 650-700# at weaning. You should start cattle off with no more than 1% of their BW in grain. I don't need to worry about that because I start them off at 5#/hd/day and keep them on that amount up to breeding age. Their hay is generally 15-16% - full fed.
MurraysMutts
Well-known member
@Jeanne - Simme Valley
We've heard u send em about 13 or 14 months right?
Have you ever fed one longer?
What weight/finish would u expect at say 18 or 24 months.....
We've heard u send em about 13 or 14 months right?
Have you ever fed one longer?
What weight/finish would u expect at say 18 or 24 months.....
StrojanHerefords
Well-known member
I would like to get at least an extra 100 pounds on the calves by backgrounding calves for 45 days. I am thinking about planting a cover crop mix that would have and using something like almond hulls for energy or distillers grains to bump the protein level up.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
I would guess any "cover crop" (any green growing plant) should have ample protein???
Actually, that is an exaggeration. They wouldn't keep putting on 3#/day on the same ration because they would reach growth peak and be laying on lots of fat. Fat does not weigh as much as muscle.
If you can "finish" a steer in 12 months to Choice hanging a 750# HCW, why put more time and money into him?
Murry - I'm getting over 3# gain, so my steers would be huge if I waited that long. Right now they are 12-13 months old averaging about 1250-1300#. They would be around 1800# at 18 months old - if fed out like I feed. There is no reason to ever get one that big. Our steaks barely fit on a dinner plate now! Also, mine are "finished" Choice when we hang them. I'm not trying to raise fat! LOL
Actually, that is an exaggeration. They wouldn't keep putting on 3#/day on the same ration because they would reach growth peak and be laying on lots of fat. Fat does not weigh as much as muscle.
If you can "finish" a steer in 12 months to Choice hanging a 750# HCW, why put more time and money into him?
I wouldn't think she would want to, Murray. Especially any of her black ones. CAB requires the hot carcass weight to be less than 1100 pounds. Once an animal approaches 1600 lb or so, chances are the HCW will exceed that. It is a fine line you have to watch carefully. The man that Clay works for, that feeds out 900 or so Brangus x Criollo calves, has a contract with a buyer for a high-end steak house chain. The buyer pays him for only CAB prime+ carcasses at the processor. He feeds these calves at his place on sorghum silage, spent mash from the Budweiser plant. chicken litter and cotton seed and gin waste. Hgh protein for growth. He does this for 120 days, then sends them to feed lot in OK for 120 days on corn. He bought 30 of the Chi-ang x Black simm and Black Simm x Chi-Angus steers from the man Clay helped last July 4th. They were about 600 or more pounds when weaned at 6 mos old. He fed these for just 90 days at his place, then 90 days at the feed lot. He also bought the 1/2 Chiangus 1/2 Plummer from us when we bought the herd. The heifers averaged weighing 700 lbs, and the steers closer to 800. He fed them at his place for either 45 or 60 days, (I forgot which) then sent them to feed lot for 120 days. Actually, Clay said it was more like 140 days. Out of the 22, 2 of them didn't get the CAB prime+ grade, because the HCW exceeded 1110 pounds. They graded prime, but didn't make CAB. He sold those to the processor. For the nay-sayers, not all good black beef makes it to CAB. This man has been doing this for about 25 years now, and knows how long to feed them there, and how long to keep them at the feed lot. Or whether to even send them to that feed lot and put them in that program. He gets it right with the vast majority of the cattle, but not always.
When I was talking to people about feeding calves for our situation (in the thread I posted), I was told we needed a high energy feed. They said or 12% or 14% protein was plenty. We will see...
2+ lbs per day on fresh weaned calves in 45 days is a fairly big request to make of them outside of a lot. Cover crop plus 5 to 7 lbs of corn or barley might do it.
Silver
Well-known member
That's a fact. Especially when one considers that they likely won't have gained anything by about the 3 week mark.
I am raising a really nice young bull. Like to know a good feeding program for him. I really want him to look good as possible as I am really proud of him.
He is recently weaned. Thx in advance!
Josher
Well-known member
I am not sure he said they are freshly weaned. That would make a big difference. I've found that I have to keep them longer than a couple months to pay for weaning them. Thats actually pretty big cost to keep them for 2 or 3 weeks with no gains.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
I fenceline wean and I can't say my calves "don't gain". I would venture to guess they may stay in a holding weight pattern for the 1st week, but for sure are gaining after that. They are put in a field that they have grazed numerous times prior to weaning. We confine them to about 1/4 of the pasture the 1st week, then we give them another 1/4, then all of it along with a good dry round bale to munch on. We start them out on 1% BW of whole shell corn with a protein pellet added for a 14% ration. They are 6 - 8 months of age.
StrojanHerefords
Well-known member
I was asking about weaning calves to go on cover crops. We have normally sold our calves right off the cow and I want to try to get some extra weight before taking them to market.
Thanks for the information. So basically, when the buyers say they want calves weaned 30 days, what they mean is that they want you to absorb the shock of weaning and to buy those calves right when they are starting to put on weight again.
Josher
Well-known member
If I was buying calves I'd like that too. But i think if u are going to keep them 30-45 days you might as well keep them a bit longer yet long enough to put some money in your own pockets
BC
Well-known member
No, the buyer wants a calf that has gone through the bawling stage, knows what a feed and water trough is for and is less likely to get sick.
MurraysMutts
Well-known member
In my VERY limited experience.....
It cost u money to wean em 2 weeks!!
Better off and more dollars in your pocket by trailer weaning right to the sale barn.
Money saved on feed etc is money still in your pocket. The post above about buyers wanting those weaned calves like that know exactly that the SELLER has absorbed the costs that they would normally absorb. And prices ain't off far enough on GOOD QUALITY UNWEANED calves to make up the difference in weight loss, vax, weaning etc...
If you implant them and wean at LEAST 60 to 90 days you can possibly be money ahead just from the gains on those calves.
It cost u money to wean em 2 weeks!!
Better off and more dollars in your pocket by trailer weaning right to the sale barn.
Money saved on feed etc is money still in your pocket. The post above about buyers wanting those weaned calves like that know exactly that the SELLER has absorbed the costs that they would normally absorb. And prices ain't off far enough on GOOD QUALITY UNWEANED calves to make up the difference in weight loss, vax, weaning etc...
If you implant them and wean at LEAST 60 to 90 days you can possibly be money ahead just from the gains on those calves.
