Price gouging vs profit opportunity
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callmefence
Keyboard cowboy
So the individual that advertises builds his own customer base , has to adjust his schedule to meet with customers and load their hay shouldn't be paid for his extra work ?Just because the neighbor down the road is willing to pay someone to do that for him?
That like saying those who sell their beef direct to consumer should only make the exact same $ as if he were to sell that same animal at the livestock auction because that's what his neighbor does.
callmefence
Keyboard cowboy
No of that has a thing to do with why hay sells for more at auction. It's because people are showing off instead of negotiating.
smartin0022
Well-known member
Call me confused. You don't need to waste the extra money on quality hay if the supplement is free. I drive to work anyways so while I'm there if I load up 1000 lbs of DDG and drive home I haven't wasted diesel because I had to go to work (7 miles) anyways. Farming is for profit and anyone who isn't doing it for profit is wasting effort and time. Bottom line is net profit but it figures first from gross. I sold 10 preconditioned calves in November at $ 1.72 avg on 592 lbs avg. In feb i sold trailer weaned calves at 510 lbs avg at $1.86 avg. I know all my inputs and outputs down to the penny. I say you cannot make money buying hay over $50 per 1400 lbs roll I've done the math. I've lost on down years and gained on up years. Hard enough to make a profit farming but unless you can show me the math I can't see it. 1.72 was a good avg. The grader helped my calves out in the ring because he knew the quality and vet regimen. I guess I'm just trying to say you can dump money on the ground in fertilizer all you want and wish in one hand want in the other throw em at the wall see which one sticks. I won't waste money on fertilizer or buy the fertilized hay when I can get the same protein levels without it. My situation is unique to most I work at a distillery. I have spent the money on the fertilizer in the past and didn't see yield gains or better calving or sales reports body condition was the same year to year.No most confuse gross profit with net profit. They also tend to overlook treasures that lie in the pile between the two.......
callmefence
Keyboard cowboy
Well...ok.lol.sounds like you got everything figured out.
You definitely have a hayman and apparently a employer that lack your savy. Idk.... maybe you should help them out before they go broke.
I'd like to know how anyone makes a dime feeding 10 bales per head. Generally I'd say you got to many cows or not enough land. Course I don't have any of that liberated syrup........
J+ Cattle
Well-known member
The cost goes up considerably when a breakdown occurs. How much would the hay cost if you had to replace an injection pump to finish the job?
Stocker Steve
Well-known member
I am jealous.
So since you can't do it it can't be done anywhere by anyone?
Good luck trying to purchase hay any where in the intermountain west for $71 a ton . Will have to let every one that produces cattle in the intermountain west they can't make money in cattle because you penciled it out and if they pay more then $71 a ton for hay they can't make money .
I am sure most would be very shocked to hear.
simme
Old Dumb Guy
Those 1400 pound net wrapped ok quality bales for $30 every day of the week are not available here. If that was available here, I would buy all I could, rebale in 4x5 bales and sale it for $40 per bale. I think that would be way more profitable than cattle here and a lot less work.
$30 hay here would be fall baled grass full of mature weeds with low nutrition and the added bonus of increasing your weed seed bank. Those that can buy ok quality hay for $43/ton sure have an advantage we don't have here. But total hay fed per year in this area will certainly be less than 7 tons/head. I guess different areas have different challenges.
$30 hay here would be fall baled grass full of mature weeds with low nutrition and the added bonus of increasing your weed seed bank. Those that can buy ok quality hay for $43/ton sure have an advantage we don't have here. But total hay fed per year in this area will certainly be less than 7 tons/head. I guess different areas have different challenges.
Where's the line between profit opportunity and price gouging? I always looked at profit opportunity to make more profits but stop before GREED. Karma
farmerjan
Well-known member
To add in my 2 cents.... we cannot make hay this year for under $60-65 a roll... several of us have gotten together to compare the costs of fertilizer, diesel costs to run over the hay ground etc. Much of the ground we make hay on cannot be grazed... it is leased or "given to us" ground and there are no fences or water and some places are just not allowed to have animals. We make 5x5 or bigger rolls so 1-1200 lb rolls average on our somewhat hilly ground. NONE of our imputs are free because we don't work at a distillery. That is a bonus for you and that is great.
We sold preconditioned calves a couple weeks ago... 15 weighing 462 for 2.00 and 14 weighing 560's for 1.90. Been selling all the heifers we wanted to cull in the 450 wts for 1.45. We hit the high spot and things have dropped off more with the continuing mess in Russia and Ukraine. Fuel went up again yesterday another $.10 a gallon. We filled all the tanks at the farm when it started to go up and glad we did. We should be okay for this year's work, but who knows what the future will bring. This is going to continue to affect the costs of the hay making and we just turned down a place that the hay return is poor. If you don't fertilize the ground it will eventually get poorer and yield will be less. That is why we turned down this place... just not going to be worth the time and they don't believe in feeding the soil for better yields. We have a couple places that we have taken care of the ground and the yields show it.
Saying that you won't waste money on fertilizing is just saying you will just mine all the good out of the ground and then TS..... we have taken on some places like that and it has taken several years to get them back into productive fields. Protein is not the only thing that the hay needs to measure up to... the micro nutrients that helps to complete the feed profile is important too and cannot all be met from distillery waste. We have a distillery here and they sell to several of the bigger dairies, but it is not available for free.
We sold preconditioned calves a couple weeks ago... 15 weighing 462 for 2.00 and 14 weighing 560's for 1.90. Been selling all the heifers we wanted to cull in the 450 wts for 1.45. We hit the high spot and things have dropped off more with the continuing mess in Russia and Ukraine. Fuel went up again yesterday another $.10 a gallon. We filled all the tanks at the farm when it started to go up and glad we did. We should be okay for this year's work, but who knows what the future will bring. This is going to continue to affect the costs of the hay making and we just turned down a place that the hay return is poor. If you don't fertilize the ground it will eventually get poorer and yield will be less. That is why we turned down this place... just not going to be worth the time and they don't believe in feeding the soil for better yields. We have a couple places that we have taken care of the ground and the yields show it.
Saying that you won't waste money on fertilizing is just saying you will just mine all the good out of the ground and then TS..... we have taken on some places like that and it has taken several years to get them back into productive fields. Protein is not the only thing that the hay needs to measure up to... the micro nutrients that helps to complete the feed profile is important too and cannot all be met from distillery waste. We have a distillery here and they sell to several of the bigger dairies, but it is not available for free.
Otha
Well-known member
So 10 bales per head at 1400 pounds. So 14,000 pounds per year per cow of "pretty ok" hay. When we feed in the winter we feed 25-35 pounds per cow per day depending on quality. At 35 pounds per day for worse quality hay we could feed a dry cow for 400 days. 14000/35=400. It would be more hay and less days for pairs but still I bet we could nearly feed all year with that much hay per cow. Do you figure in your cost of feeding that hay? Wear and tear on machinery, fuel and such?
smartin0022
Well-known member
I can see the confusion I created. I don't buy all my hay. If I buy hay when I'm short it's 5x6 or 6x6 rolls only, much more hay per per bale at pennies on the dollar increase. I roll 4x5's for myself at approx 900 lbs per bale. I keep an avg of 10 per cow calf pair per the old timers heeded warning of rough winter. I may have 3 left over on an avg winter. I'll do the math on an avg winter remember I'm gonna lose hay to being stomped on and pissed and sh!+ on. That's 7 bales per cow calf pair. 4x5's sale for $25 a bale on avg and 5x6's and 6x6's avg $30-40. I say okay quality. I mean roughly 11% protein hay brome, clover, Timothy, orchard, fescue mix. I usually have leftover hay. I have 225 acres to farm and in my area 1 cow to 2 acre ratio. We have several farms in the area feeding over 4000 head and all of them use magical "syrup". Hay ground is easy to come by here rough mostly but free to the cutter. Yup I break stuff but keep my cost of maintenance low doing all my own repairs. Tires and diesel are my biggest expense and yeah I pencil it all in every year. I've been managing farms and cattle for 22 years. I think maybe I might know a little about the process. I'm still some too. If I have a 75% calving year vs an 85% year even with everything else being golden my profit per cow drops 10%. If I avg $180 per cow now I'm at $162 per cow. So now sir or mam. I profit $162 per cow. If I feed 7 bales of hay to said cow at $20 per bale putting it up cost well that's 140 hay cost per cow. Now I need 7 bales to make it to mid April on Greenup. Your argument is I need a sharp pencil, I beg it can be a sharpie marker at that figure if buy 7 bales at $290 a bale OP stated $290 for a 750 lbs bale. Well now $2030 in hay cost and my pencil sharpness helps me make a profit? I can buy 2 heavy bred 6-9's for 2030.00. It's pretty simple stuff.
if I was buying drought hay I'd have to shoot them cows and bury them in a hole with the dozer. Change the #'s how you see fit. If the hay cost 50 per roll at 4x5 size. I now spend 7x50=350 on hay. My profit per cow on a less than ideal year was $162. I added $188 per cow in hay cost. At $50 per bale I lost $26 a head without any other expenses changing. Yes 4000 head operations around here making a profit at 7 bales through winter per cow calf all day with magical syrup that's free. Magical was a good word for it 22% free protein the trucks will deliver it to you for free because they get paid by the load to haul it off as it is a byproduct of alcohol. I'll step away now the math is really truly not gonna lie to you. Around here most feed from 1st of November or December- April 15th sometimes May 1st.
50.00 for 1400lbs is pretty close to what my hay costs are with chicken litter in a normal year. This year I'm going to spray one field but I won't fertilize or add litter. May lime this year.
In my case what REALLY matters is the length of the hay feeding season. Nice thing about fescue is that the feed value is adequate all year for the most part if I have decent clover.
callmefence
Keyboard cowboy
You ask how anyone could spend over 50.00 on a roll of hay. You got your answer. They don't feed 10 rolls per cow. The math doesn't lie. But you can lie to the math.I can see the confusion I created. I don't buy all my hay. If I buy hay when I'm short it's 5x6 or 6x6 rolls only, much more hay per per bale at pennies on the dollar increase. I roll 4x5's for myself at approx 900 lbs per bale. I keep an avg of 10 per cow calf pair per the old timers heeded warning of rough winter. I may have 3 left over on an avg winter. I'll do the math on an avg winter remember I'm gonna lose hay to being stomped on and pissed and sh!+ on. That's 7 bales per cow calf pair. 4x5's sale for $25 a bale on avg and 5x6's and 6x6's avg $30-40. I say okay quality. I mean roughly 11% protein hay brome, clover, Timothy, orchard, fescue mix. I usually have leftover hay. I have 225 acres to farm and in my area 1 cow to 2 acre ratio. We have several farms in the area feeding over 4000 head and all of them use magical "syrup". Hay ground is easy to come by here rough mostly but free to the cutter. Yup I break stuff but keep my cost of maintenance low doing all my own repairs. Tires and diesel are my biggest expense and yeah I pencil it all in every year. I've been managing farms and cattle for 22 years. I think maybe I might know a little about the process. I'm still some too. If I have a 75% calving year vs an 85% year even with everything else being golden my profit per cow drops 10%. If I avg $180 per cow now I'm at $162 per cow. So now sir or mam. I profit $162 per cow. If I feed 7 bales of hay to said cow at $20 per bale putting it up cost well that's 140 hay cost per cow. Now I need 7 bales to make it to mid April on Greenup. Your argument is I need a sharp pencil, I beg it can be a sharpie marker at that figure if buy 7 bales at $290 a bale OP stated $290 for a 750 lbs bale. Well now $2030 in hay cost and my pencil sharpness helps me make a profit? I can buy 2 heavy bred 6-9's for 2030.00. It's pretty simple stuff.
What's your yield per acre on that 20.00 hay. I don't see how anyone with a pencil or a sharpie can dump a 20.00 roll of hay.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
If I take 1 cow that gives me a steer, I sure as heck make more money than $180 - even with a yearly expense per cow of $750 (which I doubt very many of you have that much yearly expense per cow) - my steers have averaged over $1000/hd. Granted, I don't have 1/2 my calf crop being sold as "cheaper" heifers (lower price/lb).
But, how does anyone stay in business with "75% calving year vs an 85% year". If I lost 15% calf crop, I definitely would be losing money.
But, how does anyone stay in business with "75% calving year vs an 85% year". If I lost 15% calf crop, I definitely would be losing money.
Rafter S
Well-known member
About 20 years ago a co-worker and I were doing some side work in the evenings after work, doing carpenter work. It was at a game ranch, owned by a man who had inherited millions, and didn't mind spending it on things that most people would consider frivolous.
I don't remember what we were charging him, but it was quite a bit, and he didn't blink an eye. That was profit opportunity.
If we'd charged the same rate to a poor widow, or a single mother, that would have been price gouging.
I don't remember what we were charging him, but it was quite a bit, and he didn't blink an eye. That was profit opportunity.
If we'd charged the same rate to a poor widow, or a single mother, that would have been price gouging.
smartin0022
Well-known member
I'm not re writing it I wrote it all out and math not worth my time to do it again. I avg 1.5 bales per acre avg at 1400 lbs to an acre. Yes it cost me about $20 per bale to produce including all cost not just some cost like most people figure. I figure everything except my time. I enjoy tractor work. I'm not digging out the taxes to lay it all out. Best of luck to anyone who makes it on $50 hay and has a real tangible profit. I have my doubts unless they are feeding less than 3 bales a year. You wouldn't make it in my area paying that. I live in cow country everyone around here has the same type operations everyone uses supplements and few waste money on fertilizer or high quality grass hay. Profit at the end of the day is the goal or should be unless you are a hobby farmer which I suspect.
simme
Old Dumb Guy
Things that I think about:
Why a person would feed hay when they can run cows on kudzu and honeysuckle in the winter and wean a 500 pound calf with no inputs.
How a person can run a mower and a baler over ground yielding 1.5 bales to the acre and only have $20/bale of costs. Must have the economy setting on the tractor pto.
Why I was not blessed with enough smarts to be able to do what others can accomplish with their time and talents. I think I got cheated.
If the farmers in Ukraine will be able to get their crops in the ground this spring. Sure to have an effect on grain supply if they don't.
How much hay you have to produce a year to overcome the hobby farmer designation.
Why a person would feed hay when they can run cows on kudzu and honeysuckle in the winter and wean a 500 pound calf with no inputs.
How a person can run a mower and a baler over ground yielding 1.5 bales to the acre and only have $20/bale of costs. Must have the economy setting on the tractor pto.
Why I was not blessed with enough smarts to be able to do what others can accomplish with their time and talents. I think I got cheated.
If the farmers in Ukraine will be able to get their crops in the ground this spring. Sure to have an effect on grain supply if they don't.
How much hay you have to produce a year to overcome the hobby farmer designation.
