Prayers Needed for Folks In Atlanta.

[aplusmnt]

How do you know union workers think they are owed 3 times a fair wage

It happens all the time, you have Numerous Factories say like in OKC that pay workers a fair and generous wage, some our higher paid than teachers, nurses, medical personal, engineers, people that went to college to get a degree. People that save lives and teach our youth.

But then you get Factories like the Chevy Auto plant in OKC that make lots more than these other local factories. They make more money than some doctors or lawyers do, for a factory job that most anyone can be trained to do in a couple weeks. Now there is nothing wrong with that, I say make all you can.

But when you go on strike to get more money and benefits even though you are the highest paid people in your area of expertise (factory worker) there might not be nothing wrong with it. But it might just be that it is still STUPID to do it.

And maybe that Stupidity is why the OKC plant shut down and is no longer there and thousands lost there jobs.

Unions did good in history, but many times stupidity and greed has cost them their jobs in modern time.

Not all Unions are bad today, but I think the UAW has been a big reason why thousands continue to loose their jobs year after year.

Aplus you are talking like a man with a paper butthole and it is blown out like a rose.
A lot of these men provide services everyday that you take for granted when you flip a light switch to filling your car.
They work in conditions more dangerous than our fighter pilots.
Look at the death rate for many of these jobs.
I beg to differ with you on the level of compentency of the worker. I don't believe you train our electricans, offshore oil platform worker, our nuclear power plant operators in two weeks.
You gripe about the wage a UAW worker look at the cost of living in the Northeast (Housing) compared to podunk Ks. Compare spendable dollars left.
You can live like a doctor lawyer or an Indian Chief in East Texas for 40,000 a year, you would starve to death in Detroit on that. You have to compare apples to apples.
I still today look for the Union label when I buy products, they have improved this countries standard of living.
There are things you can't have in a communistic state free religion, trade unions, armed population. Look at what the shipbuilders of Poland did they toppled a communist regime.

No doubt there are some Factory jobs that are very dangerous and some that are not, but that is not the factor involved in pay all times. Besides the occupations you mentioned are not Factory Workers, we are talking assembly line Factory workers making products.

I used OKC as an example comparing OKC Factory Jobs to an OKC Auto Plant comparing economies with no variables.

It will most likely be that way no matter where you go, I would venture to bet that a Factory in Detroit, union or no union making any other product besides auto's does not make anything close to what a worker at an Auto Plant does. Just like it was in Oklahoma City.

No matter how admirable or how hard working these Auto Workers are that does not change the fact that they are human and can get greedy, greed is not exclusive to white collar workers.

At some point in history some unions like the UAW went from trying to get a fair wage and work environment which was the original reason for Unions in the first place, to greedy, selfish self indulging entities that were not content with Fair, they want More, More, More, even if it is not there to give they just want more, Much like a spoiled Kid.

The biggest point I have tried to make is Why blindly buy Chevy, Ford and Dodge like they try to get us to, just because they USE to be American made. If a person wants to buy American they better smarten up and figure what really is American now days. Is a Ford made in Mexico more American that a Toyota Camry Made in the U.S.? Is a Dodge with a Mitsubishi motor American made?

I am not anti union nor anti American. I am pulling for them Poor Janitors in NYC starting a Janitorial Union trying to go from a poverty wage to a livable wage. But I will not pull or give my prayers away so freely for an Auto Worker that is so stupid to price themselves out of the Market.

The Unions of my grandfathers day are not the Same Unions of my day, and unless someone invents a time machine and I can go back and live in his era. I will have to base my opinions, prayers and dollars on the time I am living in.

As our founding fathers would likely be ashamed of the shambles the political system is today. I would also bet the union founders of past that gave blood, sweat and their lives for a Fair wage would be ashamed to see how gluttonous some Unions are today.

 

[tom4018]

The biggest point I have tried to make is Why blindly buy Chevy, Ford and Dodge like they try to get us to, just because they USE to be American made. If a person wants to buy American they better smarten up and figure what really is American now days. Is a Ford made in Mexico more American that a Toyota Camry Made in the U.S.? Is a Dodge with a Mitsubishi motor American made?

That is something to think about. US companies having assembly plants outside the US. But the others that assemble here, do their profits really stay here or go back overseas?

 

[kjones]

Aplusmnt, you seem to think that strikes are about nothing but money, or more specifically getting paid more. I can assure you that is not the truth very often. There is a lot more to striking than that. Some reasons can include, medical, dental, vision benefits. Retirement, outsourcing. Using contractors to do work done by union labor. Working conditions ( hours schedules, safety issues, safety equipment). The list con go on, but the point is it isn't just about pay. there are also a lot of job there that call for an apprenticeship of up to five years, so these people aren't "off the street". They spend a considerable amount of time studying and attending classes to accomplish their journeyman ship. The electrician journeyman program calls for more math than it does to get a teaching certificate. And by the way I think teachers should get paid more than they do, but unfortunately to many people aren't willing to pay the increase in taxes to pay these UNION workers. When they strike do you bad mouth them also?

 

[kjones]

Just out of curiosity, what is a livable wage for a janitor in NYC? And how long does it take to train them?

 

[aplusmnt]

But the others that assemble here, do their profits really stay here or go back overseas?

The small profit per car that Toyota makes that gets sent back to Japan is nothing compared to the Billions of Payroll, Construction dollars of building plants and economy boost to the community that we get in the trade off.

I have no problem in a Toyota plant making a profit that gets sent back to Japan vs a Ford plant that makes no profit but looses money year after year. They are both hiring local employees just one has some profit to send home and the other doesn't. Difference is Toyota is growing its employee base in America and Ford is loosing American Jobs and sending them to Mexico.

And by the way I think teachers should get paid more than they do, but unfortunately to many people aren't willing to pay the increase in taxes to pay these UNION workers. When they strike do you bad mouth them also?

I might it depends on the circumstances teachers are not as underpaid as everyone makes them out to be. If you look at benefits, retirement and hours worked you will see that teachers are not on the soup lines as they will have you to believe.

I say to each his own rather you buy Union goods, just do not blow smoke up my paper butthole and try to sale me this ra ra buy American made cars because they are American Made or Buy Unions things because they helped build America. Or give my Prayers out to a person because they priced themselves out of the Market.

For the Record I own, 4 Chevy's, 2 Fords, 1 Dodge, 1 Toyota, and 1 Nissan. I have spread my money around a little based on what fits my needs and not once did I mail a Check to anyone in Japan so someone in America got some profit from my purchases.

 

[aplusmnt]

Just out of curiosity, what is a livable wage for a janitor in NYC? And how long does it take to train them?

Not sure, actually I grasped for a word to describe what they were trying to get because what they want is not liveable it is just a better wage than what they got past wage and the one the union is trying to get would be still at a national poverty level.

I know it is a lot less than say the OKC yearly gross pay of a Chevy Auto Worker being $80,000 + When the Median Income for OKC is say around $35,000. They might still have that Job in OKC if they were happy with say $50,000 to $60,000 which would be a great Job for OKC

I am beating this dead horse. Not much more than I can say, than not all Big three cars are American made, not all Toyota's are made in Japan. Not all Unions are an asset to their workers or this Country. Some are some aren't. Some people are Guinness's for striking for more money, some put themselves on the soup lines.

As a parting thought, I strongly support buying American!!! Just be sure you ask for the program at the door so you know who the players are, because just because their Jersey's say America does not mean that is where they came from.

 

[Alice]

I might it depends on the circumstances teachers are not as underpaid as everyone makes them out to be. If you look at benefits, retirement and hours worked you will see that teachers are not on the soup lines as they will have you to believe.

In Texas, especially the smaller school districts, that statment is garbage. Do you know that teachers provide certain materials in their classrooms with their own money? A teacher in a smaller district, after 5 years of service, makes $30,000 a year. They have 7 days personal leave...that includes sick time. And that's just the beginning of their "wonderful" benefits. They are faced with children that are emotionally disturbed, physically abused, sexually abused, to name a few of the problems some of these children have. Some of these children have parents that could care less if they are able to participate in extra curricular activities, so the teachers pool their own money to provide for these children. I could go on and on.

Parents entrust their most precious possessions, if you will, to someone for 7 to 8 hours a day. They rely on those people to care for them, teach them, wipe their noses...and their tears.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Alice

 

[la4angus]

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Alice

Alice, if you would pay attention to what you are reading, old applesmut freely states that he has no idea what he speaks of, in his signature. But you tell the kids to go away because they bother you.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Readers: Beware fore I am a Janitor and know not what I speak of!

Donald

 

[Alice]

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Alice

Alice, if you would pay attention to what you are reading, old applesmut freely states that he has no idea what he speaks of, in his signature. But you tell the kids to go away because they bother you.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Readers: Beware fore I am a Janitor and know not what I speak of!

Donald

How true...I'm getting rid of my signature.

Alice

 

[la4angus]

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Alice

Alice, if you would pay attention to what you are reading, old applesmut freely states that he has no idea what he speaks of, in his signature. But you tell the kids to go away because they bother you.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Readers: Beware fore I am a Janitor and know not what I speak of!

Donald

How true...I'm getting rid of my signature.

Alice

Thanks. The kids reading these boards will appreciate that gesture.

 

[Alice]

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Alice

Alice, if you would pay attention to what you are reading, old applesmut freely states that he has no idea what he speaks of, in his signature. But you tell the kids to go away because they bother you.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Readers: Beware fore I am a Janitor and know not what I speak of!

Donald

How true...I'm getting rid of my signature.

Alice

Thanks. The kids reading these boards will appreciate that gesture.

Should've done it a long time ago. Thanks for pointing it out.

Alice

 

[aplusmnt]

A teacher in a smaller district, after 5 years of service, makes $30,000 a year.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Alice

If you do the Math they get around $800.00 a week for weeks worked and as you said that is small district, maybe bigger districts get more?

If you are ever in the hospital and flat line, and your life is in the hands of a Respiratory Therapist which is responsible for bagging you. And you see the light and hear a voice and come back to it. Might be good to know that they person saving your life makes less than that Teacher.

I never said teachers are invaluable and do not do admirable work, but do not try to tell me they are so under paid.

You do not want to debate this issue with me because the facts are on my side, but then again Liberals very seldom look at the facts, just what they see on TV.

 

[Alice]

A teacher in a smaller district, after 5 years of service, makes $30,000 a year.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Alice

If you do the Math they get around $800.00 a week for weeks worked and as you said that is small district, maybe bigger districts get more?

If you are ever in the hospital and flat line, and your life is in the hands of a Respiratory Therapist which is responsible for bagging you. And you see the light and hear a voice and come back to it. Might be good to know that they person saving your life makes less than that Teacher.

I never said teachers are invaluable and do not do admirable work, but do not try to tell me they are so under paid.

You do not want to debate this issue with me because the facts are on my side, but then again Liberals very seldom look at the facts, just what they see on TV.

That's old news...every time something goes against what you say you trot out that liberal crap.

BTW, respiratory therapists make more than teachers...and I might add, the policemen and Sherrif's deputies in these smaller Texas towns and districts. And, one other thing...policemen in Dallas start out at about $30,000 a year. Would you want to be a Dallas cop? For that matter, would you want to teach school in Dallas? Cripes, janitors in the Dallas school districts should make $50,000 a year just to put up with what they have to put up with. But they are lucky to pull down $20,000 a year.

Bottom line, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Alice

 

[kjones]

One thing being left out about teachers, is how many unpaid hours are spent grading assignments , or staying after school to help a student. Some people will say " well they only work nine months a year" Quite a lot of them take classes in the summer, that they aren't paid for. The starting salary for a corrections officer in a state prison here is just under $2400 a month. That's for the people who deal with the worst society has to offer. And guess what, they cant strike. Those janitors that are paid at the "poverty level" can.

 

[Alice]

One thing being left out about teachers, is how many unpaid hours are spent grading assignments , or staying after school to help a student. Some people will say " well they only work nine months a year" Quite a lot of them take classes in the summer, that they aren't paid for. The starting salary for a corrections officer in a state prison here is just under $2400 a month. That's for the people who deal with the worst society has to offer. And guess what, they cant strike. Those janitors that are paid at the "poverty level" can.

Oh yeah! And let me add, some of those classes are required. Thanks for pointing that out. And the seminars and workshops...at least 4 throughout the summer! Do teachers get paid for that...Noooooooo!

And, about the corrections officers...my gosh...you nailed it!

Alice

 

[TLCfromARK]

Aplus you need to look to your hole card, I've got to agree with Alice, Caustic, KJones and others on unions.

I'm not going to try to change your mind but I've worked for non union & union companies and I have a pretty good idea of both sides. My question to you is, have you ever worked in an union or is your statements based on heresay?

Stick to what you know.
;-)

 

[aplusmnt]

Aplus you need to look to your hole card, I've got to agree with Alice, Caustic, KJones and others on unions.

I'm not going to try to change your mind but I've worked for non union & union companies and I have a pretty good idea of both sides. My question to you is, have you ever worked in an union or is your statements based on heresay?

Stick to what you know.
;-)

Never worked for anyone in my life, except myself well I did have a few part time jobs in High School and College. But I have contracted out to many Union Accounts most of who are out of business now. Most every Union Grocery, Factory, Chemical Plant in my area are shut down. If unions were so good why did they not protect their jobs?

Spent many years as a youth hearing my dad who was a Union Rep for a Vickers machine shop in Joplin Mo talk union. I have delivered his lunch to him when he was on the Picket Line. By the way this plant folded also and is now a non union shop.

A union should also protect its members and some times taking less is protecting them. Some of the unions like UAW are guilty of one of the 7 deadly sins, Gluttony!

Alice no need to talk to you about teachers, as much as you think I am to stubborn, I feel you are to ignorant (uneducated) to even look at the facts. You always have someone you know that knows someone that tells someone the way their job is and how mistreated they are.

If you want to know the truth, get on Google, start researching the Median income of that specific city, then research what the salary is for teachers in that state then divide the hours worked into that salary. And then make an educated assessment as to rather it is to little.

And then when you figure that out then go ask that Teacher why they were so stupid to go to college and take a job that they knew before hand only paid X amount of dollars? And then after making that career choice freely why do they whine so much about their salaries, when it was their choice to go into this supposed low paying profession in the first place.


Ps. Alice thanks for proving my point about the Auto Workers being over paid. Seeing how all those important jobs like, Teachers, Policeman and Fireman make probably less than half what a guy sticking a seat in the back of a car and tightening 4 bolts gets. ;-)

 

[Alice]

Aplus you need to look to your hole card, I've got to agree with Alice, Caustic, KJones and others on unions.

I'm not going to try to change your mind but I've worked for non union & union companies and I have a pretty good idea of both sides. My question to you is, have you ever worked in an union or is your statements based on heresay?

Stick to what you know.
;-)

Never worked for anyone in my life, except myself well I did have a few part time jobs in High School and College. But I have contracted out to many Union Accounts most of who are out of business now. Most every Union Grocery, Factory, Chemical Plant in my area are shut down. If unions were so good why did they not protect their jobs?

Spent many years as a youth hearing my dad who was a Union Rep for a Vickers machine shop in Joplin Mo talk union. I have delivered his lunch to him when he was on the Picket Line. By the way this plant folded also and is now a non union shop.

A union should also protect its members and some times taking less is protecting them. Some of the unions like UAW are guilty of one of the 7 deadly sins, Gluttony!

Alice no need to talk to you about teachers, as much as you think I am to stubborn, I feel you are to ignorant (uneducated) to even look at the facts. You always have someone you know that knows someone that tells someone the way their job is and how mistreated they are. If you want to know the truth, get on Google, start researching the Median income of that specific city, then research what the salary is for teachers in that state then divide the hours worked into that salary. And then make an educated assessment as to rather it is to little.

And then when you figure that out then go ask that Teacher why they were so stupid to go to college and take a job that they knew before hand only paid X amount of dollars? And then after making that career choice freely why do they whine so much about their salaries, when it was their choice to go into this supposed low paying profession in the first place.


Ps. Alice thanks for proving my point about the Auto Workers being over paid. Seeing how all those important jobs like, Teachers, Policeman and Fireman make probably less than half what a guy sticking a seat in the back of a car and tightening 4 bolts gets. ;-)

Yeah, yeah, yeah... :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Stubborn is not exactly the word I'd use...

Ever occur to you that some people go into a profession because because they feel strongly about making a difference in other's lives...because they feel they have something to offer?

Oh, whatever...I don't care whether anything occurs to you or not.

Alice

 

[Lammie]

Alice no need to talk to you about teachers, as much as you think I am to stubborn, I feel you are to ignorant (uneducated) to even look at the facts. You always have someone you know that knows someone that tells someone the way their job is and how mistreated they are.

If you want to know the truth, get on Google, start researching the Median income of that specific city, then research what the salary is for teachers in that state then divide the hours worked into that salary. And then make an educated assessment as to rather it is to little.

And then when you figure that out then go ask that Teacher why they were so stupid to go to college and take a job that they knew before hand only paid X amount of dollars? And then after making that career choice freely why do they whine so much about their salaries, when it was their choice to go into this supposed low paying profession in the first place.


. ;-)[/quote]

As someone who is working as a classroom instructional aid, I can tell you that I was totally suprised when I discovered that I had ten paid days off right off the bat. At my last job, you would have had to have been employed for 6 months before you could use sick leave and a year before you could use accrued vacation time. Teachers taking off a couple of days after school had been on for only a week? For a vacation? Hello! June, July, part of August???

I don't think that teachers are overpaid. It is a part time job. I made less than a first year teacher at many schools in Texas after 5 years at my old position. And I worked with kids that the schools were sending to us because they didn't want to mess with them all day. Year round.

Teachers, IMHO, have it made, and I don't see what the beef is.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Aplus you need to look to your hole card, I've got to agree with Alice, Caustic, KJones and others on unions.

I'm not going to try to change your mind but I've worked for non union & union companies and I have a pretty good idea of both sides. My question to you is, have you ever worked in an union or is your statements based on heresay?

Stick to what you know.
;-)

Never worked for anyone in my life, except myself well I did have a few part time jobs in High School and College. But I have contracted out to many Union Accounts most of who are out of business now. Most every Union Grocery, Factory, Chemical Plant in my area are shut down. If unions were so good why did they not protect their jobs?

Spent many years as a youth hearing my dad who was a Union Rep for a Vickers machine shop in Joplin Mo talk union. I have delivered his lunch to him when he was on the Picket Line. By the way this plant folded also and is now a non union shop.

A union should also protect its members and some times taking less is protecting them. Some of the unions like UAW are guilty of one of the 7 deadly sins, Gluttony!

Alice no need to talk to you about teachers, as much as you think I am to stubborn, I feel you are to ignorant (uneducated) to even look at the facts. You always have someone you know that knows someone that tells someone the way their job is and how mistreated they are.

If you want to know the truth, get on Google, start researching the Median income of that specific city, then research what the salary is for teachers in that state then divide the hours worked into that salary. And then make an educated assessment as to rather it is to little.

And then when you figure that out then go ask that Teacher why they were so stupid to go to college and take a job that they knew before hand only paid X amount of dollars? And then after making that career choice freely why do they whine so much about their salaries, when it was their choice to go into this supposed low paying profession in the first place.


Ps. Alice thanks for proving my point about the Auto Workers being over paid. Seeing how all those important jobs like, Teachers, Policeman and Fireman make probably less than half what a guy sticking a seat in the back of a car and tightening 4 bolts gets. ;-)

Aplus it is a lot bigger picture than four bolts in a back seat.
You have the CEO making millions per year, and he deserves a good salary but millions. Now the board of directors for Ford are drawing a salary aslo they are on the board of Chase Manhatten Bank, Exxon, Coke, US Steel and so on. They vote the CEO's raise and he is setting on there board. This is back scratching at it's best.
Now the greedy US stock buyer which I am one is looking for a company that has at least a 15% return on capital invested.
If the company can not make a product that out sales the competion and this gets down to marketing and the design engineers, not the work floor it can't return the expected profit it looses market share and also loose's investors. The first place management wants to cut is on the blue collar floor because it is easy way to generate cash flow for the investor. You never read that the board which salaries make the CEO's look like small potatoes are cut due to lack of proper management.

A recent merger between two major companies come to mind the CEO netted over 300 million from the merger and the company lost 5,000 Union jobs. Hmm this was good for the company was the line, looks like it was real good for the CEO and board.

You really need to start looking at these board members running this countries major industry this is a snake pit of Ken Lay's just smarter. This is a brotherhood or the ultimate Union.