Prayers Needed for Folks In Atlanta.

[Wewild]

Let me see if I can get the drift of the board one minute it is gripping about Mexican's taking American jobs for cheap wages and the next we are complaining about American workers getting to much.

Kinda wanting your cake and eat it too.

That's what I've been hearing.

 

[Alice]

Edited: post appeared twice

 

[Alice]

Thanks CB. I must not have done a good enough job of speaking up for the working man.

I'd say it was a poor management decision somewhere down the line. The man or woman at that level can't make it go South.

Wewild most people that gripe about the union working man are just jealous envious people.
I am not a Union worker but lets look at this.
Most of the people that made the unions were the returning war veterans that felt like you should have a decent place to work.

Let's take the Coal Miner his life expectancy was 10 to 15 years less than the average American.
He felt like he should have a safe enviroment to work in this was long before NIOSH.
He fought for a forty hour work week that was an evil thing to do Oh or you can think the company gave it out of the goodness of there heart.
He fought for a pension plan so he wouldn't have to die an old man in the mine,
He fought for a sickness and a disability insurance so when he developed black lung and died his wife and kids would at least be able to eat.

He did all this evil while mining coal so we could bellyache about the cost of electricity.

Henry Ford was one of the most horrendous owners of all time for his treatment of workers. Read up on your history Ford got what he asked for.
Today's American worker enjoy benefits won by union workers of vaction's, medical plans, retire plans, and a safe work enviroment even if the company they work for isn't union for fear they will go.
We have the highest standard of living in the world and it is because the returning war veteran wanted a better life for his family and he won this war also by organizing.

Congress passed the 2006 pension act recently if you are in to some light reading of about 900 pages you should read how they are going to break it off in the American workers by reducing their pension formula's. This is to stop the the Enron Exec's from robbing the funds as they have been for the last 30 years. To fully fund the plans the government formula for pensions has been revised to reduce the workers pension.
Instead of making the companies live up to the ERISA act of 1976 they penalize the American worker.

O crud! I agree with Mr. Burno...because I feel strongly about this...and I hate it when this happens. In Mr. Burno's own words:

I'd rather have a dose of :clap:

Alice

 

[NamVet_Farmer44]

can't make everybody happy...people will always be complaining about one thing or another

 

[kjones]

First I would like to thank Caustic for his defense of the union worker. I recently lost my job of 11+ years working at a pulp mill for Weyerhaeuser. I can assure you that union workers are not a bunch of yo-yos that can only push a button for $50 per hour as Milliron so ignorantly put it. There are educated people in these positions as well as those with only a high school diploma. People with Bachelors, masters, and Doctorate degrees, and are every bit as intelligent as his wife. It has been my experience that people who snivel about "you guys make too much and strike when you don't get more". Striking isn't about getting more. It's about not getting less than you already were. How many of you would like to hear " now your health care costs tan times as much". or "your wage is now half what it was"? Most of these people seem to be jealous because they don't have as good a job. They probably applied and didn't get hired. Blaming a plant closure on worker is ridiculous. Do you think it might be the CEOs that make millions in salaries, and millions more as a bonus for doing "a job well done" at the same time reporting record profit losses? Or possibly stockholders whining that the RONA ( return in net assets) in not 17% such as Weyeco does, even if the facility still made a few million that year? Pissing and moaning about union workers wages being to high makes no sense. I would wager if a union wage was less, a nonunion wage for the same job would also be less than it is. Maybe the people crying about union workers are just unhappy with their own failures and shortcomings.

 

[aplusmnt]

I have nothing against any worker making as much as they can, crap I am a Janitor and I have Jobs were I make lots more than the hour wage for the highest paid auto factory worker.

If they can get it then more power to them, but what I have said is sometimes they better watch what they push for I hope they get a $100.00 an hour.

But I am a realist and know at some point the companies like Ford will break and find a cheaper way to do business. A good union leader knows where this breaking point is and backs off say 20% on their demands. They make sure their members are getting a good wage but also make sure the company makes enough money they feel these workers are worth keeping around.

If I pay a guy $10.00 an hour and he comes and demands $15.00 I just might let him go and hire a guy for $9.00 an hour to replace him. But if he comes to me and ask for $12.00 I might just keep him around and hope he appreciates it enough to work hard for me.

I think the Unions of today are nothing like the Unions of yesteryear, the Ones like Caustic Mentioned. Kind of like Welfare it started out trying to help people down on luck and then was abused.

There are some old time Unions still out there though, read about some Janitorial Unions trying to get workers from $7.50 an hour up to say $10.00 much like the old days, not like the ones trying to get a guy from $60.00 to $70.00 an hour.

 

[kjones]

I don't know about every union, but both that I have been in would bargain for raises bases on a percentage. In the neighborhood of between 2 and 3.5%. basically enough to keep up with inflation, and the cost of living. I have a problem with the company head saying they cant afford a 3.5% pay increase for workers and turning around and accepting a five million bonus at the same time. And yes that did happen.

 

[aplusmnt]

I don't know about every union, but both that I have been in would bargain for raises bases on a percentage. In the neighborhood of between 2 and 3.5%. basically enough to keep up with inflation, and the cost of living. I have a problem with the company head saying they cant afford a 3.5% pay increase for workers and turning around and accepting a five million bonus at the same time. And yes that did happen.

Stock holders must have figured that he was worth 5 million bonus especially if he saved them $500-$750 Million labor increase every year which is what a 3.5% raise would cost a company like Ford.

 

[Tod Dague]

I'd say it was a poor management decision somewhere down the line. The man or woman at that level can't make it go South.

No, but several thousand can.

 

[Tod Dague]

Ford management and the UAW probably share responsibility for Atlanta closing.

I agree.

 

[Tod Dague]

Let me see if I can get the drift of the board one minute it is gripping about Mexican's taking American jobs for cheap wages and the next we are complaining about American workers getting to much.

Kinda wanting your cake and eat it too.

Let me see if I can get the drift of the board one minute it is gripping about jobs going overseas for cheap wages and the next we are saying American workers have no responsibility in it.

Kinda wanting your cake and eat it too

I'm not saying that Unions are all bad and were extremely necessary in the past, but at some point you have to realize that labor has become a global commodity and that businesses have to produce a profit or they will go away and there will be no jobs.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Let me see if I can get the drift of the board one minute it is gripping about Mexican's taking American jobs for cheap wages and the next we are complaining about American workers getting to much.

Kinda wanting your cake and eat it too.

Let me see if I can get the drift of the board one minute it is gripping about jobs going overseas for cheap wages and the next we are saying American workers have no responsibility in it.

Kinda wanting your cake and eat it too

I'm not saying that Unions are all bad and were extremely necessary in the past, but at some point you have to realize that labor has become a global commodity and that businesses have to produce a profit or they will go away and there will be no jobs.

We have went from a country of a we society to one of screw each other. I don't care if my car was made overseas on slave wages as long as I get it. I don't care if Americans loose their job as long as I can have all my toys cheap and I keep my standard of living. We had a generation after WWII that believed in doing what was good for Americans first, we have a generation now of screw you I am only concerned with me.
Find an American tractor, tv, radio, automobile, etc. as manufacturing goes so does our strength as a nation.
How long do you think it will be before the bubble burst, Americans today are in debt up to their eyeballs to maintain their lifestyles lot like back in the 1920's. Start looking around how many people do you know that own there house or renting it from the bank, how many own their auto or leasing it from the bank Americans buy their Chinese made clothes from Walmart on Master Card. We have become a nation that builds nothing and owns nothing so we can play. We are one world event away from the soup lines here as they were in the depression I bet a lot of tunes would change then.
The governments of the other countries subsidize there industry which is another debate.

 

[Tod Dague]

Let me see if I can get the drift of the board one minute it is gripping about Mexican's taking American jobs for cheap wages and the next we are complaining about American workers getting to much.

Kinda wanting your cake and eat it too.

Let me see if I can get the drift of the board one minute it is gripping about jobs going overseas for cheap wages and the next we are saying American workers have no responsibility in it.

Kinda wanting your cake and eat it too

I'm not saying that Unions are all bad and were extremely necessary in the past, but at some point you have to realize that labor has become a global commodity and that businesses have to produce a profit or they will go away and there will be no jobs.

We have went from a country of a we society to one of screw each other. I don't care if my car was made overseas on slave wages as long as I get it. I don't care if Americans loose their job as long as I can have all my toys cheap and I keep my standard of living. We had a generation after WWII that believed in doing what was good for Americans first, we have a generation now of screw you I am only concerned with me.
Find an American tractor, tv, radio, automobile, etc. as manufacturing goes so does our strength as a nation.
How long do you think it will be before the bubble burst, Americans today are in debt up to their eyeballs to maintain their lifestyles lot like back in the 1920's. Start looking around how many people do you know that own there house or renting it from the bank, how many own their auto or leasing it from the bank Americans buy their Chinese made clothes from Walmart on Master Card. We have become a nation that builds nothing and owns nothing so we can play. We are one world event away from the soup lines here as they were in the depression I bet a lot of tunes would change then.
The governments of the other countries subsidize there industry which is another debate.

I couldn't agree more. My point was that greed isn't a white coller exclusive trait but shared by all classes.

 

[john250]

Let me see if I can get the drift of the board one minute it is gripping about Mexican's taking American jobs for cheap wages and the next we are complaining about American workers getting to much.

Kinda wanting your cake and eat it too.

Let me see if I can get the drift of the board one minute it is gripping about jobs going overseas for cheap wages and the next we are saying American workers have no responsibility in it.

Kinda wanting your cake and eat it too

I'm not saying that Unions are all bad and were extremely necessary in the past, but at some point you have to realize that labor has become a global commodity and that businesses have to produce a profit or they will go away and there will be no jobs.

We have went from a country of a we society to one of screw each other. I don't care if my car was made overseas on slave wages as long as I get it. I don't care if Americans loose their job as long as I can have all my toys cheap and I keep my standard of living. We had a generation after WWII that believed in doing what was good for Americans first, we have a generation now of screw you I am only concerned with me.
Find an American tractor, tv, radio, automobile, etc. as manufacturing goes so does our strength as a nation.
How long do you think it will be before the bubble burst, Americans today are in debt up to their eyeballs to maintain their lifestyles lot like back in the 1920's. Start looking around how many people do you know that own there house or renting it from the bank, how many own their auto or leasing it from the bank Americans buy their Chinese made clothes from Walmart on Master Card. We have become a nation that builds nothing and owns nothing so we can play. We are one world event away from the soup lines here as they were in the depression I bet a lot of tunes would change then.
The governments of the other countries subsidize there industry which is another debate.

Gotta agree with you on the frivolous use of credit. I remember the Ag collapse of the '80's. It was a chain reaction of collapsing farmers. As prices fall, everyone's collateral is re-evaluated, precipitating the next round of failures. Today the Indy Star has a story on a round of collapsing home mortgages. You have triggered my pessimistic side, but we as a society walk very close to economic collapse on a lot of fronts.

On the other, people will shop at Wal Mart and the Kia dealer. I don't like it, but we can't stop it. Price will always win market share.

I worry about our loss of the skilled tradesman. Machinist, tool makers, those kinds of folks. Everybody wants to be a rock star these days.

 

[aplusmnt]

Let me see if I can get the drift of the board one minute it is gripping about Mexican's taking American jobs for cheap wages and the next we are complaining about American workers getting to much.

Kinda wanting your cake and eat it too.

Let me see if I can get the drift of the board one minute it is gripping about jobs going overseas for cheap wages and the next we are saying American workers have no responsibility in it.

Kinda wanting your cake and eat it too

I'm not saying that Unions are all bad and were extremely necessary in the past, but at some point you have to realize that labor has become a global commodity and that businesses have to produce a profit or they will go away and there will be no jobs.

We have went from a country of a we society to one of screw each other. I don't care if my car was made overseas on slave wages as long as I get it. I don't care if Americans loose their job as long as I can have all my toys cheap and I keep my standard of living. We had a generation after WWII that believed in doing what was good for Americans first, we have a generation now of screw you I am only concerned with me.
Find an American tractor, tv, radio, automobile, etc. as manufacturing goes so does our strength as a nation.
How long do you think it will be before the bubble burst, Americans today are in debt up to their eyeballs to maintain their lifestyles lot like back in the 1920's. Start looking around how many people do you know that own there house or renting it from the bank, how many own their auto or leasing it from the bank Americans buy their Chinese made clothes from Walmart on Master Card. We have become a nation that builds nothing and owns nothing so we can play. We are one world event away from the soup lines here as they were in the depression I bet a lot of tunes would change then.
The governments of the other countries subsidize there industry which is another debate.

I agree totally! But I also believe the MODERN day Unions play a big part in this. Some companies are on the verge of either failing or looking to Outsource and they strike to get a raise on there already generous existing wage. Unions and SOME Blue collar workers are just as responsible for their loss of jobs as the white collar workers in the offices.

The difference being that those men after WWII also appreciated what they got when they were treated fairly. They worked hard for their money and did not think they were owed 3 times a fair wage. They did not quit working and go play cards in break room for two hours because they had met their quotes for the day (Local Tire plant was like that here) and the foreman's could not do nothing about it, as long as they met their expected production numbers.

If interested in a Website that list companies you can buy from that are made in America here it is.

http://madeinusa.org/nav.cgi

At one time I was thinking about opening a store on the local mall that just sold products made in the U.S. I still think it would be a good idea. I bet their would be a patriotic customer base there. I know I would go in a store like that and spend some money when wife talks me into going to the mall with her.

 

[kjones]

I don't know about every union, but both that I have been in would bargain for raises bases on a percentage. In the neighborhood of between 2 and 3.5%. basically enough to keep up with inflation, and the cost of living. I have a problem with the company head saying they cant afford a 3.5% pay increase for workers and turning around and accepting a five million bonus at the same time. And yes that did happen.

Stock holders must have figured that he was worth 5 million bonus especially if he saved them $500-$750 Million labor increase every year which is what a 3.5% raise would cost a company like Ford.

How much do you suppose the cost increase of a new ford car or truck is every year? Think it could be around 3.5%? If it is I think it is highly likely that would offset the increased labor costs.

 

[kjones]

[quote="Tod I'm
The difference being that those men after WWII also appreciated what they got when they were treated fairly. They worked hard for their money and did not think they were owed 3 times a fair wage. They did not quit working and go play cards in break room for two hours because they had met their quotes for the day (Local Tire plant was like that here) and the foreman's could not do nothing about it, as long as they met their expected production numbers.
How do you know union workers think they are owed 3 times a fair wage or play cards for two hours in the break room? And of the foreman could do nothing about it, then it must have been in line with company policy. It seems to me you are basing your impressions of union workers on one place. If everyone did that, the whole world would think country folk were a bunch of banjo playing inbred hillbillies

 

[Lammie]

Heard on the news tonight Ford had made its last Taurus and was going to lay off 2000 workers in Atlanta. I feel for these people.

Neighbors on either side of us are retired from GM. Both of them took the early retirement buyout. It is hard to feel sorry for people who have done so well. I can remember living in Arlington and knowing people who worked at the GM plant who were barely scraping by. How??? They made great money. They just always managed to spend more than they made. Thinking that the road goes on forever and the party never ends, I guess.

I also remember one strike where the workers said that they were being put out of business by foreign auto makers. One news crew went around filming the parking lot. There weren't many GM cars in the employee lot. Lots of Toyotas, Nissans, and the like. I remember thinking that if those workers didn't have enough faith in their own product to buy one, why should I?

 

[aplusmnt]

How do you know union workers think they are owed 3 times a fair wage

It happens all the time, you have Numerous Factories say like in OKC that pay workers a fair and generous wage, some our higher paid than teachers, nurses, medical personal, engineers, people that went to college to get a degree. People that save lives and teach our youth.

But then you get Factories like the Chevy Auto plant in OKC that make lots more than these other local factories. They make more money than some doctors or lawyers do, for a factory job that most anyone can be trained to do in a couple weeks. Now there is nothing wrong with that, I say make all you can.

But when you go on strike to get more money and benefits even though you are the highest paid people in your area of expertise (factory worker) there might not be nothing wrong with it. But it might just be that it is still STUPID to do it.

And maybe that Stupidity is why the OKC plant shut down and is no longer there and thousands lost there jobs.

Unions did good in history, but many times stupidity and greed has cost them their jobs in modern time.

Not all Unions are bad today, but I think the UAW has been a big reason why thousands continue to loose their jobs year after year.

 

[Caustic Burno]

How do you know union workers think they are owed 3 times a fair wage

It happens all the time, you have Numerous Factories say like in OKC that pay workers a fair and generous wage, some our higher paid than teachers, nurses, medical personal, engineers, people that went to college to get a degree. People that save lives and teach our youth.

But then you get Factories like the Chevy Auto plant in OKC that make lots more than these other local factories. They make more money than some doctors or lawyers do, for a factory job that most anyone can be trained to do in a couple weeks. Now there is nothing wrong with that, I say make all you can.

But when you go on strike to get more money and benefits even though you are the highest paid people in your area of expertise (factory worker) there might not be nothing wrong with it. But it might just be that it is still STUPID to do it.

And maybe that Stupidity is why the OKC plant shut down and is no longer there and thousands lost there jobs.

Unions did good in history, but many times stupidity and greed has cost them their jobs in modern time.

Not all Unions are bad today, but I think the UAW has been a big reason why thousands continue to loose their jobs year after year.

Aplus you are talking like a man with a paper butthole and it is blown out like a rose.
A lot of these men provide services everyday that you take for granted when you flip a light switch to filling your car.
They work in conditions more dangerous than our fighter pilots.
Look at the death rate for many of these jobs.
I beg to differ with you on the level of compentency of the worker. I don't believe you train our electricans, offshore oil platform worker, our nuclear power plant operators in two weeks.
You gripe about the wage a UAW worker look at the cost of living in the Northeast (Housing) compared to podunk Ks. Compare spendable dollars left.
You can live like a doctor lawyer or an Indian Chief in East Texas for 40,000 a year, you would starve to death in Detroit on that. You have to compare apples to apples.
I still today look for the Union label when I buy products, they have improved this countries standard of living.
There are things you can't have in a communistic state free religion, trade unions, armed population. Look at what the shipbuilders of Poland did they toppled a communist regime.