Piedmontese cross heifer

[WalnutCrest]

Sorry if I misread. Pretty much was thinking that Pieds fell into your this statement:

Generally, missence variation cattle have twice as many muscle fibers, each of which is long with a narrow diameter ... and ... disruptive variations have the same number of muscle fibers as regular cattle, just they are twice as thick (making the beef tougher).

I guess the "generally" part of that went over my head. Thanks for the link as I had not seen this info until now.

You bet. And, I'm all for learning too -- if I'm wrong about this, I'd love to learn, change my stance and be right!

It was always my understanding that 'double muscling' occurs in one of two forms:

* Twice as many muscle fibers as typical cattle, all are long and narrow diameter (and therefore more tender). This type has no calving problems due to the tendency to be well muscled.
* Same number of muscle fibers as typical cattle, all are shorter and thicker in diameter (and therefore tougher). These cattle tend to have real issues with calving ease.

So, I guess, if research shows that Piedmontese cattle don't have extra muscle fibers (to explain for their phenotype), I'd love to learn how they achieve the look they have and are tender beef. Thanks!

 

[slick4591]

Twice as many muscle fibers as typical cattle, all are long and narrow diameter (and therefore more tender). This type has no calving ease due to the tendency to be well muscled.

I believe this group is what Pieds fall into. I'll also add there are heifer safe bulls on the market. This guy is one of them and I've been trying to talk myself into ordering.

And I now see that the C313Y gene is what we deal with in Pieds.

 

[WalnutCrest]

I originally typed what you quoted above ("...no calving ease...") but I meant "...no calving problems..." and have edited my original post to fix the error.

 

[slick4591]

Gotcha. I've also made an edit in my last post. Gotta say I appreciate this conversation as it's given me more knowledge into what make my breed choice click.

 

[WalnutCrest]

Gotcha. I've also made an edit in my last post. Gotta say I appreciate this conversation as it's given me more knowledge into what make my breed choice click.

As I mentioned above, a bull client of mine is running a FB Aubrac bull over his Aubrac and Pied cows ... for an off-the-farm beef market. I'm looking forward to seeing those calves.

 

[ANAZAZI]

Many good things have been said here. The only thing needing correction is the Cityguy stating something off about muscling. Typically Piedmontese calves have full muscle at six weeks.

 

[WalnutCrest]

<snip>

As far as calving goes my answer is it depends. Pied calves tend to be longer and not blocky. Calves don't show excess muscling until a couple of weeks old. My calves have ran from 85 to 110 pounds. You can't the put feed to them during the last trimester else you run the risk of high BWs (true with most cattle, I think). I mentioned those breeding dates being important as that adds pounds when they go overdue and cause pulls in heifers. Pieds tend to have smaller vaginas and the muscling tend to make a tighter canal. I've learned, albeit the hard way, that if she is not showing signs of labor on the due date you should hit her with Dex. You can get around a lot of the problems by breeding heifers to low BW Angus or such. Heifers do take some extra management when breeding them to full blood bulls.

To illustrate how the calves change:

Heifer just an hour or so old.



Bull calf at 13 days.

Similar calf development in our Aubracs -- here's a picture of a heifer nursing her mama at about 1hr old ... and the same heifer at 16 days old. She weighed a shade over 70lbs at birth (I'm at the office and don't remember, but I think her exact weight was 72lbs). This is on an all grass-and-hay diet for mama and calf.

 

[Big Bucks]

Gotcha. I've also made an edit in my last post. Gotta say I appreciate this conversation as it's given me more knowledge into what make my breed choice click.

As I mentioned above, a bull client of mine is running a FB Aubrac bull over his Aubrac and Pied cows ... for an off-the-farm beef market. I'm looking forward to seeing those calves.

I have a heifer calf from one of my Pied cows and Aubrac bull. She was born without assistance and looked like a typical Aubrac calf in size and color when born. She does not have the extreme muscling of Pied calves but still has more than typical Aubrac calves. Expecting another Pied x Aubrac later this fall. I will try to get a photo of that Aubrac X Pied heifer .... of course I still dont have new photos of Ben, that hair sample, etc etc etc.

 

[slick4591]

I'm going to throw my opinion out for you Big Bucks, but if you have a cow that's fullblood Pied with parentage verified papers you are leaving money on the table by crossing her. Fullblood Pied females will bring much, much, much more than anything commercial.

 

[Big Bucks]

I'm going to throw my opinion out for you Big Bucks, but if you have a cow that's fullblood Pied with parentage verified papers you are leaving money on the table by crossing her. Fullblood Pied females will bring much, much, much more than anything commercial.

I appreciate the suggestion but right now I am marketing all-natural grass-fed beef locally. I am currently getting $3.75 per pound hanging weight with carcasses averaging over 700#. Buyer pays processing fees. Thats over $2500 per steer/heifer. This is also a growing market.

The best beef I ever had was a Pied ribeye that my wife still talks about. If I can increase the carcass yield of my animals while also improving quality (both by using Pieds), and providing a high-quality beef product that local consumers cant get from the farmer down the road, it is a recipe for success.

I have been in the breeding stock business with other livestock enterprises throughout my 53 years. Between the politics of the business and additional costs of registration and other BS, the price for Pied heifers would have to be darn good and with a reliable market for me to even consider going that route.

Right now I am in experimental mode trying to find the right combination of breeds to meet my end goals. I am not sure using Pied cross females in a grass-fed operation is the best route. Maybe I need to use a Pied terminal sire? I am leaning towards a cow herd that is an F1 cross using Aubrac as one of the breeds. I am still undecided on the other breed - Red Angus, Murray Grey, British White, etc. In regards to the role that Pieds will play in the final mix, it made more sense for me to buy a couple of Pied females and experiment that way than to buy a Pied bull. That gives me the F1 Pied x Aubrac calves needed to see how they perform on a forage only diet. Would you have any insight on raising Pieds on a forage only diet?

Again, I appreciate your comments and am certainly open to learning more.

 

[slick4591]

Sent you a PM Big Bucks.

 

[Cucumber35]

We started with purebred Red Angus and have been breeding to Piedmontese bulls for years. Most of the cow herd now is comprised almost entirely of retained crossbred replacements, and some of which are 3/4 Piedmont if not a few that are more. I pulled 1 calf this year out of 33. Only real issues we've had were breeding a Piedmont to heifers. That year was a disaster. Since then heifers get bred back to a Red Angus bull. After that first one they seem to be fine though. Current bull isn't huge and doesn't throw massive calves but they grow well and the double muscling makes for some nice feeders. To say it's a terminal cross is false in my experience, just have to use some common sense when choosing your bull which should always be the case anyway IMO.

 

[Muddy]

To say it's a terminal cross is false in my experience.

IMHO, double muscled cattle should be terminal in crossbreeding programs, even if the DM females are good mother cows but there is nothing to improve the carcass in F2 cross and if you add another non-DM breed on F1 cows, you'll have mixed calf crop with DM and normal calves.

 

[slick4591]

I agree with Cucumber as the object is to breed those 1-copy up to 2. By all accounts 2-copy animals are higher yielding, better flavor and more tender (testimony from breeders). There are a few Pied markets opening up that will pay 15-20 cents above average market for 1-copy and a little better for 2, and if you have a pot load they will do the trucking. And that's not mentioning the seedstock value in a commercial herd.

 

[rain dance]

Cucumber or anyone else with experience. How do the cross's and 2 copies preform in the feedlot in your experience compared to regular cattle? Do you need to change the feed ration at all from that of regular cattle? I have heard that they need a lower energy higher protein diet but I'm not sure if I believe that.

Would it be worth it for someone to use a pied bull in your opinion if the operator wasn't able to tap into specialty markets?

 

[Cucumber35]

Cucumber or anyone else with experience. How do the cross's and 2 copies preform in the feedlot in your experience compared to regular cattle? Do you need to change the feed ration at all from that of regular cattle? I have heard that they need a lower energy higher protein diet but I'm not sure if I believe that.

Would it be worth it for someone to use a pied bull in your opinion if the operator wasn't able to tap into specialty markets?

As far as feedlot diet goes I haven't seen any need for anything different. We have always fed a commercial mix for steers from the local feed mill and I'm not 100% sure exactly what is in it, I know we have had them add extra steamed flakes of corn before especially near the end of finishing. As much as they will clean up in a day and free choice grass hay. The past three years we sold all of the calf crop as feeders after weaning, my grandfather decided it seemed to be more profitable given the higher cost of feed and higher prices for cattle, but was more of a management thing than anything I think. Now that I am more involved full time this year I'm planning to keep about half back as replacement heifers and finish some steers like we usually did in past years. We are usually able to direct market at least several steers as freezer beef for family and friends and the local butcher shop we use has always been willing to pay a premium for any extras we are willing to feed. He really seems to like the high quality and lean cuts and seems like he does well selling it at his storefront. As far as feeders at the sale barn, can't say there's really any noticeable premium, but we still do pretty well for the most part. So to answer your question, no I don't think you will gain much without some type of niche market, but on the other hand I don't think you would really be losing anything either if you're producing healthy high quality calves. Personal preference in the end I suppose. As far as the beef itself goes, you can't get it much leaner and have it still be nice and tender... If you like it well done though it might not be for you.

 

[Angus Rocks]

Does somebody have some pictures of a Piedmontese red or black angus cross cattle? Have a friend that was wanting me to ai some piedmontese to my registered black angus cows. TIA

 

[slick4591]

[youtube]https://youtu.be/pOEw2B9ShAk[/youtube]

[youtube]https://youtu.be/hL1TwvluIqY[/youtube]

 

[slick4591]

[youtube]https://youtu.be/pOEw2B9ShAk[/youtube]

[youtube]https://youtu.be/hL1TwvluIqY[/youtube]

To keep your myostatin percentages up I'd go with a full blood. You will still have black calves.

 

[gaurus]

To me Pieds don't look that impressive, blonde d'aquitaine seem to be more muscular and Charolais are of course the Ultimate terminal breed. :cboy:

[youtube]https://youtu.be/NeXRTRvip94[/youtube]