Piedmontese cross heifer

[rain dance]

This spring I bought a real nice black angus 1st calf cow with a heifer on her side. I saw the bull and was told he was a piedmont but didn't now much of anything about the breed at the time and she looked like a normal calf. We'll after sometime I noticed how muscular she had become and then learned they carry a double muscling gene somewhat like a Belgium blue. Have heard mixed things about them. I called the man I bought her from and didn't notice double muscled cows in his heard but he said she would be ok to breed. Some literature says they are terminal crosses only and have reduced fertility. Has anyone had experience with retaining cross piedmont heifers? I really would like to expand the herd as I have way more pasture then cows plus her mom has a great temperament, good maternal instincts and a very nice build.

 

[Muddy]

Slick should be able to answer your questions. He has some nice Piedmontese cattle.

 

[WalnutCrest]

The only way to know if any animal has suitable fertility is to try to breed them and see what happens ...

Good luck to you.

 

[slick4591]

This spring I bought a real nice black angus 1st calf cow with a heifer on her side. I saw the bull and was told he was a piedmont but didn't now much of anything about the breed at the time and she looked like a normal calf. We'll after sometime I noticed how muscular she had become and then learned they carry a double muscling gene somewhat like a Belgium blue. Have heard mixed things about them. I called the man I bought her from and didn't notice double muscled cows in his heard but he said she would be ok to breed. Some literature says they are terminal crosses only and have reduced fertility. Has anyone had experience with retaining cross piedmont heifers? I really would like to expand the herd as I have way more pasture then cows plus her mom has a great temperament, good maternal instincts and a very nice build.

I'm finding there's not a fertility issue with Piedmontese, but like with all heifers you do need to be conscious of BW and breeding dates. Keep up with the breeding dates because the calf is growing a lot in the third trimester. A few days of going over can cause you some big problems calving. Right now I'm retaining F1 heifers and breeding them back to Pieds. The F1 bull calves are terminal here. Our registry allows for 1-copy (Tendercross) and 2-copy (Tenderlean) and there's a niche market for both if you can find it in your area. I'm expecting a 3/4 Pied calf any day now and my objective with the crosses is to breed up to 2-copy animals and run those along with my full bloods.

 

[Bigfoot]

This spring I bought a real nice black angus 1st calf cow with a heifer on her side. I saw the bull and was told he was a piedmont but didn't now much of anything about the breed at the time and she looked like a normal calf. We'll after sometime I noticed how muscular she had become and then learned they carry a double muscling gene somewhat like a Belgium blue. Have heard mixed things about them. I called the man I bought her from and didn't notice double muscled cows in his heard but he said she would be ok to breed. Some literature says they are terminal crosses only and have reduced fertility. Has anyone had experience with retaining cross piedmont heifers? I really would like to expand the herd as I have way more pasture then cows plus her mom has a great temperament, good maternal instincts and a very nice build.

I'm finding there's not a fertility issue with Piedmontese, but like with all heifers you do need to be conscious of BW and breeding dates. Keep up with the breeding dates because the calf is growing a lot in the third trimester. A few days of going over can cause you some big problems calving. Right now I'm retaining F1 heifers and breeding them back to Pieds. The F1 bull calves are terminal here. Our registry allows for 1-copy (Tendercross) and 2-copy (Tenderlean) and there's a niche market for both if you can find it in your area. I'm expecting a 3/4 Pied calf any day now and my objective with the crosses is to breed up to 2-copy animals and run those along with my full bloods.

That's interesting. Wish you'd post some pics of each.

 

[CSM]

Many of the continental breeds have terrible maternal reputations in this country. If these reputations were accurate these breeds would have died out long ago. When all of Europe was at war during I and II how did these breeds survive? I would give her a chance.

 

[slick4591]

That's interesting. Wish you'd post some pics of each.

If that was aimed at me this old video shows full blood bulls and 2-copy bulls (black).

[youtube]https://youtu.be/9BaHfi0MAy8[/youtube]

 

[rain dance]

Ok thanks I'll give her a chance. Very nice looking bulls slick. How do the calfs from the 2 copy black bulls sell in conventional markets?

 

[slick4591]

These are not my bulls. They are some of the Olmsted genetics that were produce in Michigan. The market is going to depend on where you are. Since this breed has only been in North America since 1984 it is still young and now becoming somewhat popular. Since I've really only dealt with full bloods it's hard to say about the market for 2-copy not pure. I can tell you that if I had had a pasture full of full blood breeding age bulls every year I could have sold all I had since I started with them back in 2010. Heifers are much more in demand than bulls.

 

[Muddy]

Ok thanks I'll give her a chance. Very nice looking bulls slick. How do the calfs from the 2 copy black bulls sell in conventional markets?

Surprisedly they do well....in slaughter cow/bull market. Killer buyers will pay a little more than the kill price for double muscled cattle. Feeder calf market? Not much. My neighbor ran a half Belgian Blue bull on their Angus cows and sold the crossbred calves at the sale barn without any dock. Tho the guys did sort off the calves with double muscle from the group and sold by themselves. Piedmontese used to be popular as a terminal bull for longhorns here, but Charolais was better choice.

 

[rain dance]

That makes sense about the kill buyers since they carry so much more meat relative to body weight then other breeds.I have heard its better to feed them a higher protein ration with less energy then conventional cattle because of having less ability to put on fat. Not sure how much truth there is to that but it make sense feeders not wanting them as much.

I have 3 cross caves out of a 2 copy full blood pied bull(the heifer and 2 bull calves). I love how they look and grow on just grass. I'll admit maybe some of it is just of love of how the crosses look but I have thought about the idea of getting a 2 copy bull sometime in the future. I just hate being confined to niche markets or getting docked because they are not the right color or look a little different.

 

[Muddy]

That makes sense about the kill buyers since they carry so much more meat relative to body weight then other breeds.I have heard its better to feed them a higher protein ration with less energy then conventional cattle because of having less ability to put on fat. Not sure how much truth there is to that but it make sense feeders not wanting them as much.

I have 3 cross caves out of a 2 copy full blood pied bull(the heifer and 2 bull calves). I love how they look and grow on just grass. I'll admit maybe some of it is just of love of how the crosses look but I have thought about the idea of getting a 2 copy bull sometime in the future. I just hate being confined to niche markets or getting docked because they are not the right color or look a little different.

My friend is raising Belgian Blue influenced cattle and some untraditional breeds. She is in fed beef market and selling butcher animals privately without getting worried about double muscled and colors.

 

[rain dance]

Probably the smart thing for her to do cutting out the middle man and auction fees. I will see how the 2 other calves sell. After my highland mistake I'm just afraid to branch out to far on bull selection lol , I like the option of being able to cash them out at the sale barn if private sales fail. Not that I haven't given up completely on the idea for the future I just want to play it safe for next year atleast.

 

[farmerjan]

Used a belgian blue AI on a couple of char cross cows years ago and got all bull calves but they were all "blue" with some spotting. They grew like all get out but haven't used them since. Sorry for the ignorance but what is 1 copy tendercross and 2 copy tenderlean??? I liked the calves but the market here is "black" cattle and so just didn't get into too much of the "other" colored cattle.

 

[City Guy]

1 copy and 2 copy refer to the mutated myostatin gene. The myostatin gene is present in all mammals and limits muscle growth so that we don't look like a bag full of bowling balls. With double muscled cattle that gene mutates and allows greater muscle growth. Double muscled cows just have larger muscles, not actually two of every muscle. If you cross a 2 copy animal with a 0 copy animal (Angus say) all the offspring will be 1 copy. Cross two 1 copy animals and 1/4 of the calves will be 2 copy, 1/4 will be 0 copy and 1/2 will be 1 copy (on average). Keep crossing the 2 copies and eventually your herd will be 100% 2 copy and black.
The myostatin gene mutates differently with each double muscled breed, some positive and some negative effects. But the Piedmontese hit the mutation lottery. It's mutations all have positive effects:

1. Meat is very tender, naturally
2. Meat is low in fat and cholesterol (even lower than chicken)
3. Double muscle doesn't start to develop until 10-12 weeks of age-not in the womb-so easy calving
4. Lower fat content overall-greater feed efficiency

"Tendercross" and "Tenderlean" are trade names the association came up with to promote the crosses.

 

[Muddy]

So easy calving?

 

[WalnutCrest]

Not all myostatin mutations are the same. Igenity tests for nine different types.

There are three different mutations that give the combination of traits described above - each of these mutations are described by Igenity as being missence variations. In addition to the type common to Piedmontese cattle, a different type (called the F94L mutation) is common to Limousin and Aubrac cattle. I don't recall off the top of my head the name of the Piedmontese variation or the name of the third missence variation.

The other six are considered disruptive variations and can greatly affect calving ease.

Generally, missence variation cattle have twice as many muscle fibers, each of which is long with a narrow diameter ... and ... disruptive variations have the same number of muscle fibers as regular cattle, just they are twice as thick (making the beef tougher).

Generally, cattle with two copies of a disruptive variation are consider "double muscled", as it's a the effects of harder calving and tougher beef are not desired.

One of our clients runs a fullblood Aubrac bull on Aubrac and Piedmontese cows.

 

[slick4591]

Not all myostatin mutations are the same. Igenity tests for nine different types.

There are three different mutations that give the combination of traits described above - each of these mutations are described by Igenity as being missence variations. In addition to the type common to Piedmontese cattle, a different type (called the F94L mutation) is common to Limousin and Aubrac cattle. I don't recall off the top of my head the name of the Piedmontese variation or the name of the third missence variation.

The other six are considered disruptive variations and can greatly affect calving ease.

Generally, missence variation cattle have twice as many muscle fibers, each of which is long with a narrow diameter ... and ... disruptive variations have the same number of muscle fibers as regular cattle, just they are twice as thick (making the beef tougher).

Generally, cattle with two copies of a disruptive variation are consider "double muscled", as it's a the effects of harder calving and tougher beef are not desired.

One of our clients runs a fullblood Aubrac bull on Aubrac and Piedmontese cows.

Pieds have an an inactive myostatin gene which is one cause for the extra muscling. They are naturally tender, although with the lack of marbling you need to stop cooking them at medium, else you won't be happy with the product. In contradiction with WalnutCrest I'm told by other Pied breeders the 2-copy animals tend to be more tender with more flavor. I've not slaughtered any Pieds to date, but do buy steaks on occasion.

As far as calving goes my answer is it depends. Pied calves tend to be longer and not blocky. Calves don't show excess muscling until a couple of weeks old. My calves have ran from 85 to 110 pounds. You can't the put feed to them during the last trimester else you run the risk of high BWs (true with most cattle, I think). I mentioned those breeding dates being important as that adds pounds when they go overdue and cause pulls in heifers. Pieds tend to have smaller vaginas and the muscling tend to make a tighter canal. I've learned, albeit the hard way, that if she is not showing signs of labor on the due date you should hit her with Dex. You can get around a lot of the problems by breeding heifers to low BW Angus or such. Heifers do take some extra management when breeding them to full blood bulls.

To illustrate how the calves change:

Heifer just an hour or so old.



Bull calf at 13 days.

 

[WalnutCrest]

Not all myostatin mutations are the same. Igenity tests for nine different types.

There are three different mutations that give the combination of traits described above - each of these mutations are described by Igenity as being missence variations. In addition to the type common to Piedmontese cattle, a different type (called the F94L mutation) is common to Limousin and Aubrac cattle. I don't recall off the top of my head the name of the Piedmontese variation or the name of the third missence variation.

The other six are considered disruptive variations and can greatly affect calving ease.

Generally, missence variation cattle have twice as many muscle fibers, each of which is long with a narrow diameter ... and ... disruptive variations have the same number of muscle fibers as regular cattle, just they are twice as thick (making the beef tougher).

Generally, cattle with two copies of a disruptive variation are consider "double muscled", as it's a the effects of harder calving and tougher beef are not desired.

One of our clients runs a fullblood Aubrac bull on Aubrac and Piedmontese cows.

Pieds have an an inactive myostatin gene which is one cause for the extra muscling. They are naturally tender, although with the lack of marbling you need to stop cooking them at medium, else you won't be happy with the product. In contradiction with WalnutCrest I'm told by other Pied breeders the 2-copy animals tend to be more tender with more flavor. I've not slaughtered any Pieds to date, but do buy steaks on occassion.

<snip>

Actually, you didn't contradict me. You misread me.

Piedmontese cattle have a missence variation (who's name I cannot recall right now) that had many similar characteristics to the traits of Limousin and Aubrac cattle carrying the F94L version of a missence variation.

Cattle caring (for example) the nt821 variation are carrying a disruptive variation (i.e., the kind related to calving difficulty and shorter thicker muscle fibers. There are six different disruptive variants that Igenity tests for.

Here is a link to the list of nine variations with a bit of additional information about the differences between disruptive variants and missence variants --> https://tlbiolabs.co.uk/products/bovine/myostatin

Animals carrying two copies of either type of variant will show more of the traits associated with that gene function.

Aubrac calves are typically between 65-85 pounds. I'm only aware of a handful of instances of a fullblood calf weighting over 100 pounds - and in almost all of those instances it was sired by or out of a cow suited by one particular bull (who is no longer serving cows). The largest fullblood calf we had was a bull calf of about 82 pounds (if I remember correctly). As with all breeds, the further north you go, the heavier the calves.

Cattle having myostatin mutations aren't all the same. Know the differences before buying your next bull.

 

[slick4591]

Sorry if I misread. Pretty much was thinking that Pieds fell into your this statement:

Generally, missence variation cattle have twice as many muscle fibers, each of which is long with a narrow diameter ... and ... disruptive variations have the same number of muscle fibers as regular cattle, just they are twice as thick (making the beef tougher).

I guess the "generally" part of that went over my head. Thanks for the link as I had not seen this info until now.