Got it, thanks! Having looked at the pedigree there are two possibilities. 1)his dam is not who it says on the paper or 2) as NH was a novel mutation it came from the top side and his sire is really NHC, which honestly is rather unlikely. Generally parentage verificarion doesn't get done as a matter of course when doing defect testing as the need to test is based on pedigree risk and pedigree is assumed to be correct.Commercialfarmer":29lt95k2 said:
PB Angus Questions
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JustSimmental
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I ran GAR Chair Rock 5050 K1429 through ASA to get his numbers compared to PB Simm:
BW: -3.7
WW: 33
YW: 86
MM: 10.4
MWW: 27.5
CW: 9.3
YG: 0.19
Marb: 1.01
BF: 0.09
REA: 0.18
SHR: -0.24
API: 132
TI: 81
5050's Dam is tested carrier trait trac red for NH, which, for me, is unacceptable; 036 is a trait trac yellow for CA. Even though your bull -- GAR Chair Rock 5050 K1429 is tested free his daughters may well be population risks for NH, CA and AM. Bull calves used for breeding purposes as a terminal sire would be ok.
Just looking at your bulls numbers when balanced with a PB Simm he has a low birth weight; weaning weight is fair (not an Angus strong suit); YW is good approaching great but not quite there; His MM is a bit high, which does cause rather high maintenance cows; CW is good; YG is terrible (again not an Angus strong suit); Marb is great (an Angus strong suit); BF is terrible (again not an Angus strong suit); REA is low (again not an Angus strong suit); SHR is ok, kinda low. His API is 132, which is ok-- not great and his TI is 81, which his sire was 95-- so his dam was really low and bringing him down in that category.
This is why I say that finding a great Angus sire is almost impossible based on the numbers and performance data when we crossbreed Angus and Simm.
your Bull would help Simm on BW YW CW and Marb.
Now lets look at a PB Simm -- NLC Upgrade # 2474338
BW: -0.1
WW: 73
YW: 119
MM: -10
MWW: 26.7
CW: 32.1
YG: -0.10
Marb: 0.40
BF: -0.01
REA: 0.66
SHR: -0.32
API: 138
TI: 94
BW is what we would consider average; His WW and YW is Light years ahead of your bull; MM is low, but when we compare Simm with Angus in this category --when Angus has an MM of 0.00 PB Simm is a 15.4. His MWW is the same as your Bull; His CW is light years ahead of your Bull; His YG is light years ahead of your Bull; his Marb is much lower than your Bull; His BF is light years ahead of your bull; His REA is light years ahead of your bull; Shr is better; API is better and TI is light years ahead of your Bull.
Given the choice here; when breeding our PB Simm cows and we want growth we would tend to go toward to PB Simm Bull over the Angus; reduce the milk as those daughters would be less maintenance than those +10's as there are only 2 categories that this Angus is better in -- which are Marb and BW.
I still think your bull is a good bull, but he really cant do much for us in a cross breeding situation
BW: -3.7
WW: 33
YW: 86
MM: 10.4
MWW: 27.5
CW: 9.3
YG: 0.19
Marb: 1.01
BF: 0.09
REA: 0.18
SHR: -0.24
API: 132
TI: 81
5050's Dam is tested carrier trait trac red for NH, which, for me, is unacceptable; 036 is a trait trac yellow for CA. Even though your bull -- GAR Chair Rock 5050 K1429 is tested free his daughters may well be population risks for NH, CA and AM. Bull calves used for breeding purposes as a terminal sire would be ok.
Just looking at your bulls numbers when balanced with a PB Simm he has a low birth weight; weaning weight is fair (not an Angus strong suit); YW is good approaching great but not quite there; His MM is a bit high, which does cause rather high maintenance cows; CW is good; YG is terrible (again not an Angus strong suit); Marb is great (an Angus strong suit); BF is terrible (again not an Angus strong suit); REA is low (again not an Angus strong suit); SHR is ok, kinda low. His API is 132, which is ok-- not great and his TI is 81, which his sire was 95-- so his dam was really low and bringing him down in that category.
This is why I say that finding a great Angus sire is almost impossible based on the numbers and performance data when we crossbreed Angus and Simm.
your Bull would help Simm on BW YW CW and Marb.
Now lets look at a PB Simm -- NLC Upgrade # 2474338
BW: -0.1
WW: 73
YW: 119
MM: -10
MWW: 26.7
CW: 32.1
YG: -0.10
Marb: 0.40
BF: -0.01
REA: 0.66
SHR: -0.32
API: 138
TI: 94
BW is what we would consider average; His WW and YW is Light years ahead of your bull; MM is low, but when we compare Simm with Angus in this category --when Angus has an MM of 0.00 PB Simm is a 15.4. His MWW is the same as your Bull; His CW is light years ahead of your Bull; His YG is light years ahead of your Bull; his Marb is much lower than your Bull; His BF is light years ahead of your bull; His REA is light years ahead of your bull; Shr is better; API is better and TI is light years ahead of your Bull.
Given the choice here; when breeding our PB Simm cows and we want growth we would tend to go toward to PB Simm Bull over the Angus; reduce the milk as those daughters would be less maintenance than those +10's as there are only 2 categories that this Angus is better in -- which are Marb and BW.
I still think your bull is a good bull, but he really cant do much for us in a cross breeding situation
HomePlaceAngus":i3agfd9h said:
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JustSimmental
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I have read quite a bit about the Red Poll and their ability to produce a choice carcass on grass alone. That's good info, but I would like to see some data on grain fed calves. I did see some data online, but couldn't make heads or tails of it and the data set was a bit low.
Let me just give you the short explanation of what we are trying to do with (red) PB Simm.
I'm not going to start from the beginning here, but with Fleckvieh cattle eons ago, Simmental had to make some changes because the fleck cattle would not "make the grade" in their carcass quality parameters. Other factors were frame, milk, feed efficiency, etc, etc.
What we have today in red and black PB Simm is a big mess where 90% of the red and blk PB Simms are going back to G151 Legacy-- and sometimes on both Sire and Dam's side-- let me name a few-- CNS Dream On (Heterozygous Blk), Hooks Shear Force (Het Blk) WS Beef Maker (red), Nichols Manifest, Circlet Antoinettes Star, the list goes on forever. I have only a few cows with G 151, but just on one side and they will all be gone in a few years.
In the red genetics it is HSF, BM, CNSDO, GCF Mr Amigo, Red label, Red baron, Highlander, Bravehart-- the cattle in bold all go back to G 151. Bravehart is the Sire of Highlander he is a red bull out of heterozygous blk parentage.
Highlander has pretty good numbers for a red PB, but in the big scheme of things he isn't that good.
Another red genetic nightmare was in the early 90s when MV Red Light was used-- and later found to have some genetic feet issues--- ...
So early 70's ASA breeders used sorry red angus genetics to rid the fleck cattle of the diluter gene
The 80's were years of breeding black only via G 151
The 90's were MV Red Light
The 00's was CNS Dream On and Hooks Shear Force and Beef Maker --all G 151's
The 10's sons of the above 3-- so far.....
With that background understood--- the only way to get good genetics for red cattle is to start over with new genetics, which is one of the things we have been doing for a long time.
Unlike some associations, ASA allows a breeder to breed up to PB Simmental by taking genetics from other breeds to improve Simm genetics.
So, when you look back into a Simmental great like Leachman 600 U-- for example; you will find a Hereford cow.
If I started with a Red Poll cow and bred her to a PB Red Simm (NOT a G 151) sire it would take several generations to "breed up" to PB. So my question to you is --- do you have a better than average cow in your chosen breed to be the foundation dam for an improved Red Simm? That is what it is going to take to improve red genetics.
Currently, we have 2 red Simm Bulls that have no G 151 anywhere in their background, no dream on, no hsf, no beef maker, no in dew time, basically no junk--- so we are there already, but I am always on the lookout for red cattle that can serve as a foundation dam for even more improvement.
Thanks in advance,
JS
Let me just give you the short explanation of what we are trying to do with (red) PB Simm.
I'm not going to start from the beginning here, but with Fleckvieh cattle eons ago, Simmental had to make some changes because the fleck cattle would not "make the grade" in their carcass quality parameters. Other factors were frame, milk, feed efficiency, etc, etc.
What we have today in red and black PB Simm is a big mess where 90% of the red and blk PB Simms are going back to G151 Legacy-- and sometimes on both Sire and Dam's side-- let me name a few-- CNS Dream On (Heterozygous Blk), Hooks Shear Force (Het Blk) WS Beef Maker (red), Nichols Manifest, Circlet Antoinettes Star, the list goes on forever. I have only a few cows with G 151, but just on one side and they will all be gone in a few years.
In the red genetics it is HSF, BM, CNSDO, GCF Mr Amigo, Red label, Red baron, Highlander, Bravehart-- the cattle in bold all go back to G 151. Bravehart is the Sire of Highlander he is a red bull out of heterozygous blk parentage.
Highlander has pretty good numbers for a red PB, but in the big scheme of things he isn't that good.
Another red genetic nightmare was in the early 90s when MV Red Light was used-- and later found to have some genetic feet issues--- ...
So early 70's ASA breeders used sorry red angus genetics to rid the fleck cattle of the diluter gene
The 80's were years of breeding black only via G 151
The 90's were MV Red Light
The 00's was CNS Dream On and Hooks Shear Force and Beef Maker --all G 151's
The 10's sons of the above 3-- so far.....
With that background understood--- the only way to get good genetics for red cattle is to start over with new genetics, which is one of the things we have been doing for a long time.
Unlike some associations, ASA allows a breeder to breed up to PB Simmental by taking genetics from other breeds to improve Simm genetics.
So, when you look back into a Simmental great like Leachman 600 U-- for example; you will find a Hereford cow.
If I started with a Red Poll cow and bred her to a PB Red Simm (NOT a G 151) sire it would take several generations to "breed up" to PB. So my question to you is --- do you have a better than average cow in your chosen breed to be the foundation dam for an improved Red Simm? That is what it is going to take to improve red genetics.
Currently, we have 2 red Simm Bulls that have no G 151 anywhere in their background, no dream on, no hsf, no beef maker, no in dew time, basically no junk--- so we are there already, but I am always on the lookout for red cattle that can serve as a foundation dam for even more improvement.
Thanks in advance,
JS
Jovid":x1oab0et said:
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JustSimmental
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Pick a popular Angus bull-- here is one >> S S Incentive (an Objective Son)--- ASA # 2544298
go to ASA > https://herdbook.simmental.org/simm...rch.vm/action/animalSearch.AnimalSearchAction
type in his reg # --
then below his pedigree under Reports you will need to click on "Genetic Detail"
This will give you his background on genetic defects.
Use the + sign to look further back into his background for each genetic defect.
There is also a key to what the colors mean
You will see in S S Incentive that these defects are moving from the female line forward --
So what ASA recommends for us as Simm breeders is that bulls with a population risk are ok for a terminal sire only, but heifers could well be a population risk and need to be tested if they remain in a breeding herd.
JS
go to ASA > https://herdbook.simmental.org/simm...rch.vm/action/animalSearch.AnimalSearchAction
type in his reg # --
then below his pedigree under Reports you will need to click on "Genetic Detail"
This will give you his background on genetic defects.
Use the + sign to look further back into his background for each genetic defect.
There is also a key to what the colors mean
You will see in S S Incentive that these defects are moving from the female line forward --
So what ASA recommends for us as Simm breeders is that bulls with a population risk are ok for a terminal sire only, but heifers could well be a population risk and need to be tested if they remain in a breeding herd.
JS
robert":3erv1w2p said:
I question your assertion that this bull is 'popular' but fundamentally your argument against him is flawed, the bull is DF, documented free, it doesn't matter a crap what his dam was or is for 'risk', the line of defect risk ends with the tested bull. They are not moving anywhere.
Also, selection of breeding stock does not rely on 'great' bulls or females, it relies upon selection for sound, functional, inheritable traits in a marketable package. I wouldn't use the bull you highlight for many reasons, none of which involve his epds, though his epds may be why he gets used some.
Also, selection of breeding stock does not rely on 'great' bulls or females, it relies upon selection for sound, functional, inheritable traits in a marketable package. I wouldn't use the bull you highlight for many reasons, none of which involve his epds, though his epds may be why he gets used some.
jscunn
Well-known member
Robert,
Help me out here, he is saying this:
5050's Dam is tested carrier trait trac red for NH, which, for me, is unacceptable; 036 is a trait trac yellow for CA. Even though your bull -- GAR Chair Rock 5050 K1429 is tested free his daughters may well be population risks for NH, CA and AM. Bull calves used for breeding purposes as a terminal sire would be ok.
But the bull himself is tested free of NH and CA.. What kind of stupid crap is the ASA doing? Like you said the bull is free it doesnt matter if the parents were NHC or CAC.. Help me understand why the ASA does it this way.
Help me out here, he is saying this:
5050's Dam is tested carrier trait trac red for NH, which, for me, is unacceptable; 036 is a trait trac yellow for CA. Even though your bull -- GAR Chair Rock 5050 K1429 is tested free his daughters may well be population risks for NH, CA and AM. Bull calves used for breeding purposes as a terminal sire would be ok.
But the bull himself is tested free of NH and CA.. What kind of stupid crap is the ASA doing? Like you said the bull is free it doesnt matter if the parents were NHC or CAC.. Help me understand why the ASA does it this way.
Baldie Maker
Well-known member
jscunn":196s9ffm said:
Just so you have the heads up about an animal. If you stayed on 50/50's pedigree page then you'd see he is tested clean with a green dot, while his dam who is a tested carrier will have a different color dot (Red?). It's just a way for them to have everything in the clear.
jscunn
Well-known member
Sounds more like a way to fool the foolish into using more Simmental bulls and less Angus bulls.. If anyone will not use a tested clean bull because his mother is a carrier, then he doesnt have sense enough to sell me cattle.. JS is wrong again by avoided clean bulls because their mothers are possibly a carrier.
Baldie Maker
Well-known member
jscunn":3qiitu3g said:
I think I may of not conveyed to you exactly what I wanted to. The simmental association has each animal listed as carriers, tested clean, pedigree free, and acouple other listings. If the animal is tested clean or pedigree free of any known defects they'll have a green dot. In the case of 50/50 he is tested clean and has a green dot meaning he's free of any defect via testing. This in no way should discourage anyone from using this bull as he is not a carrier of any lethal defect. His dam on the other hand is listed as a carrier with association as she is. It's a very informative tool and takes some of the guess work out of worrying about genetic defects that may indeed be lingering in a pedigree from several generations back. It doesn't imply that clean bulls will sire carrier calves, that's JS mistake.
It sounds to be that JS is looking not for an Angus bull, but another simmental. All these areas that Angus are weak in and Simmental strong in and vice versa leads to breed complementarity, which is why it's such a great cross.
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JustSimmental
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Actually you have to go BEYOND the green dot to "Genetic Detail" and when you do so you will see that for SS Incentive, in my example, shows 2 out of 3 defects passing through females. This is bothersome because SSI hasn't been tested rather is Documented free for CA and AM.
As you can see that all these dams are population risks and it isn't an issue for commercial producers using this bull as a terminal sire, but it is possibly an issue for PB breeders retaining replacement females.
As you can see that all these dams are population risks and it isn't an issue for commercial producers using this bull as a terminal sire, but it is possibly an issue for PB breeders retaining replacement females.
Baldie Maker":zzwuoh7t said:
jscunn
Well-known member
My suggestion is dont use him. I cant find a link to AM or CA in his pedigree, at least 5 or 6 generations back, so who is the link to those two defects?? His dam is tested free of NH, so that shouldnt be an issue. Most AI stud bulls have all been tested, at least the ones that were in stud at the time of the AM, NH, CA issues came out. Try one of those if you are scared of AM or CA..
Show me the link to AM and CA Just Simmental I just dont see it...
Show me the link to AM and CA Just Simmental I just dont see it...
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JustSimmental
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Ok here are the links --My example was S S Incentive but you can choose any Angus and get these results. His ASA # is 2544298. Plug his number into this page> https://herdbook.simmental.org/simmapp/template/animalSearch,AnimalSearch.vm
When his information comes up ..... and under his pedigree there are two boxes --
One says "Useful Links" (lower left) and one says "Reports" (lower right)
Click on "Genetic Detail"
This will show you in more detail about his genetic defects for NH CA and AM
Use the (+) and (-) to expand his pedigree and genetic defects in his lineage- etc....
Also on this page you will see what the colors mean in Trait Trac
To look at the Top Angus Sires registered with ASA go to >
https://herdbook.simmental.org/simmapp/template/animalSearch,CustomSearch.vm
Under "Additional Options" put 150 in the API field and 80 in the TI field.
At the bottom make sure "bull" is selected and registered "yes" is selected
Animal type --- select "active parent" -- Breed type select "Other Breed" (which will pull up Angus)
the press "search"
In a few minutes you will get a list of the leading Angus Sires that have been registered with ASA and you can then get their registration numbers and run them through the first page I included in this post to check into their possible genetic defects---
To make a long story short --there is NO Angus Sire today that doesn't have at least a "population risk" trait trac Yellow in their lineage --somewhere. NONE.
When I used this system it pulled up 78 Angus Sires--- run any of the 78 Angus and you will find a Population risk somewhere in their lineage and also find out which bulls have been tested and which have NOT. In my example--Incentive has NOT been tested for all 3 defects and using his genetics is a risk if you are retaining breeding females. His genetics are not a risk if you are using him as a terminal sire.
I hope this helps.
I appreciate your suggestion, but there aren't any Angus Sires in the list of 78 that do not have a "population risk" trait trac Yellow --- somewhere in their Lineage.. So, you advice would mean for us that are retaining breeding females is to not use Black Angus Sires ever again. OK
JS
When his information comes up ..... and under his pedigree there are two boxes --
One says "Useful Links" (lower left) and one says "Reports" (lower right)
Click on "Genetic Detail"
This will show you in more detail about his genetic defects for NH CA and AM
Use the (+) and (-) to expand his pedigree and genetic defects in his lineage- etc....
Also on this page you will see what the colors mean in Trait Trac
To look at the Top Angus Sires registered with ASA go to >
https://herdbook.simmental.org/simmapp/template/animalSearch,CustomSearch.vm
Under "Additional Options" put 150 in the API field and 80 in the TI field.
At the bottom make sure "bull" is selected and registered "yes" is selected
Animal type --- select "active parent" -- Breed type select "Other Breed" (which will pull up Angus)
the press "search"
In a few minutes you will get a list of the leading Angus Sires that have been registered with ASA and you can then get their registration numbers and run them through the first page I included in this post to check into their possible genetic defects---
To make a long story short --there is NO Angus Sire today that doesn't have at least a "population risk" trait trac Yellow in their lineage --somewhere. NONE.
When I used this system it pulled up 78 Angus Sires--- run any of the 78 Angus and you will find a Population risk somewhere in their lineage and also find out which bulls have been tested and which have NOT. In my example--Incentive has NOT been tested for all 3 defects and using his genetics is a risk if you are retaining breeding females. His genetics are not a risk if you are using him as a terminal sire.
I hope this helps.
I appreciate your suggestion, but there aren't any Angus Sires in the list of 78 that do not have a "population risk" trait trac Yellow --- somewhere in their Lineage.. So, you advice would mean for us that are retaining breeding females is to not use Black Angus Sires ever again. OK
JS
jscunn":3mvedx5y said:
It boils down to this, the ASA 'population risk' assessment on many of these is absolute bollocks. There is no way 6807 for example is any kind of risk for CA, yet is listed so because a test hasn't been done for it. I think you JS are trying to make a big deal out of nothing. The bull you instanced has been tested free or documented free of all three defects, I don't care if his ancestors are yellow, red or pink with purple spots, the individual is clean therefore any potential problems end there, you are just trying to muddy the waters, for what reason I don't know.
jscunn
Well-known member
Justsimmental,
Ok I followed your directions..
Here is a link to the first bull I pulled up
https://herdbook.simmental.org/simmapp/ ... er=2545031
The yellow trait trac for his dam is pretty weak, his dam regardless of what the ASA says, has no risk of AM,NH, CA. Just because she hasnt been tested then the ASA puts up a yellow bar on her, that is weak.. Regardless of the fact that she is clean, the bull, HER SON, has been tested clean. He is not a carrier of those defects. If you understand recessive defects you would know that the bull would never transfer the recessive gene for AM, NH, CA to any progeny, EVER.. The only way that any calf of his would ever be a carrier it would be the dam of the calf that had the defect..
Quit trying to sell people a false bill of goods.. Weak.. Talk to someone who understands recessive genetic defects, get them to explain it to you..
What i was telling you not to use an untested bull, without understanding the silly system the ASA has, now I understand you should be looking for red (carrier) or pink (carrier in lineage). The yellow means it is an Angus cow that is untested but the should be clean by pedigree. Any bull that is green is tested or parentage free. Any bull that is GREEN is safe to use REGARDLESS OF WHAT COLOR HIS SIRE OR DAM IS,, clear??
Ok I followed your directions..
Here is a link to the first bull I pulled up
https://herdbook.simmental.org/simmapp/ ... er=2545031
The yellow trait trac for his dam is pretty weak, his dam regardless of what the ASA says, has no risk of AM,NH, CA. Just because she hasnt been tested then the ASA puts up a yellow bar on her, that is weak.. Regardless of the fact that she is clean, the bull, HER SON, has been tested clean. He is not a carrier of those defects. If you understand recessive defects you would know that the bull would never transfer the recessive gene for AM, NH, CA to any progeny, EVER.. The only way that any calf of his would ever be a carrier it would be the dam of the calf that had the defect..
Quit trying to sell people a false bill of goods.. Weak.. Talk to someone who understands recessive genetic defects, get them to explain it to you..
What i was telling you not to use an untested bull, without understanding the silly system the ASA has, now I understand you should be looking for red (carrier) or pink (carrier in lineage). The yellow means it is an Angus cow that is untested but the should be clean by pedigree. Any bull that is green is tested or parentage free. Any bull that is GREEN is safe to use REGARDLESS OF WHAT COLOR HIS SIRE OR DAM IS,, clear??
