PB Angus Questions

[JustSimmental]

The reason I am asking these questions is that I am looking for a Blk Angus AI sire to use on PB Simmental that does not pose a threat to my bloodlines, as I don't want a potential buyer to look into a calves background and see a trait trac of yellow or red-- it just doesn't look good. Simmental has trait trac -- which shows any known genetic defects from all Sires regardless of breed.



1. Why do PB Black Angus breeders continue to use the GAR Precision line when that line has been proven to be a tested carrier of NH and AM and a population risk for CA genetic defects?



2. As a PB Angus breeder what is your threshold you use in choosing an AI Sire by EPD's. For example, what WW EPD would you consider too low. Another example-- REA. REA is not a Blk Angus strong suit and when crossing them with Simmental we end up with an animal that is borderline substandard for Sim/Angus in this category.


3. When you are choosing a Blk Angus AI Sire --what EPD's are you choosing for the most and why; what EPD's are your buyers looking at the most? (growth EPD's or carcass merit).

4. An example of what kind of cattle I want to breed for:
i will just pull a cow off my list of PB Simmental cows > This is a GW Lucky Dice cow
CE BW WW YW MCE MM MWW YG CW BF MARB REA SHR API TI
8.3 0.5 34 71 5.6 5.4 22.1 -0.01 5.3 .05 0.50 0.31 - 50 121 70

When I look at this cow I want to improve BW WW YW REA API TI and I am trying to decide what Angus Bull might help improve her numbers. The problem with Blk Angus is their BF and REA is bad;
their MM is sometimes bad; WW is sometimes bad; and YG is bad.

So I plan to use SS Fast Track
When I run this PB Angus sire through ASA his number change a good bit to the following:
BW WW YW MM MWW YG CW BF MARB REA API TI
-5.7 47 100 4.9 28.4 .31 14.1 .11 1.14 .07 175 109

The progeny from this pairing ends up with these numbers:
BW WW YW MM MWW YG CW BF MARB REA API TI
-2.6 42 85 5.2 25.3 .15 8.5 .07 .83 .19 148 89

This individual ranks in the top 1% nationwide for API and TI but this is where I lose:
YG BF and REA is terrible. I also end up with a Yellow trait trac in the lineage. Do you think the bull buyers care?

Anyway I would appreciate some ideas and your honest thoughts.

Thanks in advance

JS

 

[bse]

I have both sim and angus so i like both and a cross works good. If you feel that angus will contaminate your bloodline id stick with PB sim.
1. Presicion is a good blood line lots of good cattle all tested now so you know if there carriers lots of other bloodlines with problems but i think they handled it pretty well
2 If angus makes sim/angus substandard dont do it. I have no certain parameters that i use.
3. if your selling to commercial cattle folks i think growth means the most something to push the scales.
if you have some buyers retaining ownership then carcass. Know your customers
4.Just like you said some things Fastrack pulls your cow down others she pulls Fastrack down. not sure you can find a bull in any breed to fix every epd. Fastrack has a green trait trac not sure where yellow comes from im sure most all sires in these books are clean from defects. maybe you have to hope for a hefier and try and improve some more on her. but after all that i used fastrack alot in the spring on some Pb angus and some sim/angus hefiers hope he works out for me and you.

 

[JustSimmental]

I appreciate your thoughts on my questions. For example, even though Yon Future Focus is tested free of the 3 known Angus genetic defects he still goes back to a red Trait trac individual > Future Direction and GAR Precision 1680-- I just hate that yellow (population risk) red (tested carrier) trait trac finding its way into my registration papers.

SS fast track as you know is tested free, His Sire Mytty is tested free and MGS SS Objective is tested free, but fast tracks Dam is trait trac Yellow (population risk) grand dam yellow great grand dam also yellow.

Mytty's Dam and and grand dam and as far back as you want to look is a population risk Trait trac yellow even with most of the Yellow trait tracs on the dams of popular Angus sires one in particular is not good.

Think about it ---- DHD Traveler 6807 is a yellow trait trac and a population risk and how many Angus progeny go back to this one sire--- Huge

B/R New design 036 is a another Trait trac yellow -- how many progeny does he have in the world -- huge.

WHS Limelight Mytty on top GAR Predestined on the bottom -- both sides yellow trait trac

When you go to ASA and look up all PB Angus Sires with an API of 160 and above and TI of 80 and above; there are no PB Angus Sires (33) that do not pose a population risk to the 3 known genetic defects.

We do test all our calves with Angus bloodlines for genetic defects, but my further use of PB Angus Sires is rapidly ending as the risk just isn't worth the gamble.

 

[Jovid]

I can solve your dilemma .......you just need to use a Red Poll bull on your Simms.

 

[sizmic]

Please don't take this as a slight to the simmy breed, I am asking a ? because I would like to know. If all of the bulls you suggest carry a gene that can result in a color other than black, how did the simmy breed turn black?

Sizmic

 

[plumber_greg]

You guys are biting like fish. gs

 

[Baldie Maker]

Are you making something of nothing? Most any animals that trace to any bloodlines with known defects especially in studs have to be tested and have been tested free of any known defects. How many calves out of predestined, 6807, or 036 are out there? Thousands and no one has heard any about genetic defects in those cattle, even if you want to hunt all the back in EXTs pedigree you can find he traces back to the sunbeam cattle twice through Emulation 31. If we culled on "dirty" pedigrees like they did in the time of sunbeam then the Leachmans would of never made it. If that individual isn't themselves a yellow or red dot and has been tested for all known defects that their pedigree dictates they may have then why worry about if another animal before them has one?

 

[robert]

If the individual bull you are looking at is tested free of all defects for which he was a potential carrier then the problem ends there, does not matter what is ancestors were. Secondly, are you a cattle breeder or a mathematician? Balancing numbers won't improve the cattle except on paper to a so called ideal level.

 

[jscunn]

What does "yellow trait trac" mean?

i agree with Robert, numbers breeding is why people use bulls that no one would use if there were no numbers, if the "Objective" is numbers hire a mathematician..

 

[simcross]

I thought the diluter genes were in simmental. The gray or smokie comes from the diluted black gene and the diluted red gene gives you yellow cattle.

Where can you find information on the yellow tract gene in the angus breed

 

[Baldie Maker]

The simmental association has a color coded way of showing weather or not an animal is a treat to the population, possible defect carrier, tested genetic carrier and so on and so forth. If you visit the simmental website and do a search you'll see it in the upper right hand corner.

An Accelerated bull out of one of the angus bulls mentioned: Predestined. reg number 2414537 (you'll have to copy n paste this in the search)
https://herdbook.simmental.org/simmapp/ ... archAction

notice the green dot in the upper right hand corner.

 

[HomePlaceAngus]

We like a young GAR Sire that we purchased 1/2 interest in,to use here at HomePlace Farms. We are excitingly waiting his first calves to hit the ground. Our customers are looking for growth first and then after growth they want everything else all wrapped up in one package. We all know that this just doesn't happen. He is GAR Chair Rock 5050 K1429, AAA# 16634936. His EPD's are CED +7, BW +2.8, WW +64, WW+115, MK +34, Marb +.82, RE +.85, $W +28.55, $F +49.46, $G +41.16, $B +77.24 and his EPD's seem to be going up monthly.

Yes, he does have Precision 1680 back in the 4th generation of his pedigree but I consider that a plus as 1680 was a great carcass sire in his own right. His offspring in this pedigree has tested negitive for the noted genitic defects for several generations. There is absolitutly no chance that GAR Chair Rock 5050 K1429 is a carrier. He also has the great B/R New Design 036, his fast reising son GAR New Design 5050 and SS Objective T510 OT26 in his pedigree. I am looking forward to posting pictures of his offspring on this site in the future. I hope this information and my views will be of help to you.

 

[ANAZAZI]

A bull from a carrier pedigree, that has been tested free is free. A bull from a "good" pedigree, that is not tested, is a non tested bull. You decide.

 

[Commercialfarmer]

Came across a registered angus bull a couple years ago that is listed as NHC-AMF-CAF.

His Sire was listed as AMF-CAF.

His Dam was listed as AMF-NHF and still is.

I doubt this occurs often by any means, but it would not be cool to have a negative x negative mating yield a carrier calf. I know that either a test somewhere along the lines yielded an erroneous result, sample was mixed up, etc, the listed linage was incorrect, or the sire line is a carrier and has not been identified. I doubt that as he is extremely popular (I won't divulge this as I don't know where the problem lies, maybe even the carrier status? and I don't want to be wrongfully slander a breeder or line. Using this as an example only).

With this particular calf, he had the look the sire stamped on his calves- so I have to think lab error was at play. This would be the only concern I would have with mating any immediate descendants- was the test accurate for this particular one.

However, it would be crazy for seed stock producers to totally disregard a line of cattle due to a genetic defect. Tests were designed to identify carriers- and are generally very acurrate. This information is valuable and can make using the various lines of cattle with known defects possible. The negative can be separated from the positive and carrier free cattle can be sold for commercial production, or for other seed stock use.

More importantly, as we go along and identify more and more genetic defects you will realize that no animal or human will have defect free genes. We all have anomalies. Some bigger than others. Some life threatening at any earlier age, others later. There is no such thing as a completely clean bull. It is said that on average we all have at least 3 anomalies. Most are just functional with life, at least for a period of time.

It would be a mistake to chunk any productive line out the window completely, especially when the defect can actually be identified.

 

[robert]

It's a perfectly simple and straightforward answer, the sire is NHC but has not been tested. You can't pass on what you don't have. I have no idea which bull you are talking about but if this bull is NHC he didn't get it from his dam.

 

[Commercialfarmer]

I ran out of time last night, I should have researched a little more before I posted. But here is a little more information.

I thought that the sire had been listed as NHF when I looked him up previously, and he is. I didn't want to say that without researching it first. The AAA just listed the sire on the son's registration page as AMF-CAF-XF. I looked up the sire, the sire's DAM and the sire's SIRE and they are all listed as NHF.

The Dam of the bull that is a carrier was sired by Precision 1680. So I assume that this is where it came from. However, she was and still is listed as NHF. I wonder if this is a typo, or a lab error? With the amount of information in all these data bases, errors are bound to occur from time to time. Whether sample taking/handling, lab error, transcription error, etc..

Out of curiosity:
Can you list a animal as NHF if both parent's tested negative without testing the specific animal?
Or is every animal listed as NHF been specifically tested?

 

[vclavin]

We like a young GAR Sire that we purchased 1/2 interest in,to use here at HomePlace Farms. We are excitingly waiting his first calves to hit the ground. Our customers are looking for growth first and then after growth they want everything else all wrapped up in one package. We all know that this just doesn't happen. He is GAR Chair Rock 5050 K1429, AAA# 16634936. His EPD's are CED +7, BW +2.8, WW +64, WW+115, MK +34, Marb +.82, RE +.85, $W +28.55, $F +49.46, $G +41.16, $B +77.24 and his EPD's seem to be going up monthly.

Yes, he does have Precision 1680 back in the 4th generation of his pedigree but I consider that a plus as 1680 was a great carcass sire in his own right. His offspring in this pedigree has tested negitive for the noted genitic defects for several generations. There is absolitutly no chance that GAR Chair Rock 5050 K1429 is a carrier. He also has the great B/R New Design 036, his fast reising son GAR New Design 5050 and SS Objective T510 OT26 in his pedigree. I am looking forward to posting pictures of his offspring on this site in the future. I hope this information and my views will be of help to you.

Would you mind sharing this bulls actual ultrasound data?
Valerie

Have you by any chance run DNA testing on this bull?

 

[robert]

my understanding is that only animals for which test results have been received get the defect status designation (NHF, AMC etc) If parents are tested free of given defects then the progeny are automatically considered free though you would have to test to have that show on the paper. If there are untested ancestors in direct descent from a known carrier they are flagged on the pedigree as being potential carriers, at some point, depending on the defect, that individual would have to be tested or his progeny tested free to be eligible for registration. If you don't want to post the reg number of the bull you mentioned on here could you pm me with the number?

 

[Commercialfarmer]

Robert,

PM sent.

 

[RD-Sam]

Run the numbers on GAR Predestined, he is probably the best sire I have used so far.