Opinions needed, especially form those with Brown Swiss experience

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Warren Allison said:
Just got back from evaluating the colt. Had to come back here to the house and get my trailer. I am bringing him here to work with!!! Lot of things we are gonna have to undoo and start over right. On the way over, Dan said that Lindsey, this girl that helps him with his horses some, was the one that started riding him and was already over there. Oh boy! This colt is like most...or maybe I should say a lot...of women's horses. ( No offense intended to any ladies who might actually know horses and horsemanship) This colt has no respect for her at all. The little idiot thinks the colt pushing on her and trying to nibble her is a sign he "loves Her". It ran AHEAD of her when she was leading it to the barn. Wouldn't stand still as she was trying to brush it...and she kept stopping and trying to pet his nose, telling him he was a good boy, etc. ...laughing when he would reach around and try to "love" on her. I asked her what she had been riding him in , and she said a snaffel. I asked D-ring, O-ring, Eggbutt..what kind. She said let me go get it and show you. Comes back with a hinged bit curb with 4" shanks and some kind of circular contraption. For "leverage"! She said " This is called a "Wonder Bit".... it can increase severity as you pull harder on the reins.... sometimes Pooky Poo is hard to stop" Lord help me! I said, well wanna saddle him up and let me watch you ride him? So, she went in got a barrel saddle and TWO pads. It was semi-quarter bars, maybe even Arabian bars, and this colt will need a full quarter bars. She said he can be a little cold backed at times when you first get on ( Hell yeah, that saddle was killing his back...already starting to get some white hairs on the withers.) Then there was the God-awfullest fight I have seen in a while when she tried to bridle him. AND.. she went back in and got a damned TIE DOWN to put on him. I asked why and she said sometimes when she asks him to hard stop from a gallop. he tries to throw his head and rear up! I had to hold the horse for her to get on, and he took off crow-hopping some with her at first. ( No wonder..that saddle was KILLING his back!) Soon as he quit bucking she spurred him, screamed "Yah Yah"!!!,, and took off at a gallop...spurring the hell out of him! I was sure the colt was neck reining by now, but hell no, she was direct reining..or trying to..plowlining some call it, this horse in a shanked curb!!! All of a sudden she hollered woah and got in his mouth so hard, the little feller went nuts. The pain in his mouth and jaws was so excruciating that yes he freaked out and was trying to rear, anything he could to get relief. Dan said " Boy that lil old cow-gal can really RIDE, can't she?!! I told him to get her the hell off him NOW!

I had a rope halter in my truck, and went and got it while she was trying to get Pooky Poo to the barn. Got that damned contraption of a bridle and tie down off him, and had her unsaddle. They had a round pen..little too big for what you need, but I took him out to it, turned him loose and moved him around the pen, turning him and stopping him some. This colt is SMART, and has a lot of athleticism in him. I left him in the round pen, told Dan to tell that girl to leave him alone til we got back. and I left and came over here to get my trailer. I told an it was gonna be a lot more work for a longer time, and I need him over here so I can get to him every day. ( and to get him away from the little Parellie Princess ). I'll be back with him in a little bit, and gonna work with him some til it gets dark (5:30 now..*&^%$#@). We were going to go over to where those cows are...but not now.
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That horse if from some awesome cutting stock...

I think the girl needs a whole lot more training than the horse...maybe you could hedge your bet and charge her about $5000 to show her how to actually handle a horse. Basic stuff like how to lead, be the leader and actual ground work and basic horsemanship...that's worth $5000 to me. Probably more with a horse like that.

edit*** and how to feed a horse and that they're not pets unless her objective is to make them pets or money pits... stuff like this really irritates me...spend money on training yourself, then you can make money on training...until then she shouldn't touch a lead line, or feed that isn't what was laid out for her...I might trust her to fill their water if needed...

As far as dairy cattle not getting old, most of that is how that industry treats the cattle. They're used hot and fast...kept in loafing barns so they don't get exercise and breeding has caused them to get thinner in the rear end so they give out faster. Add into that the production increases and pumping feed through them and you have a recipe for a short life... When I was a kid and the cows were let out onto a pasture and fed in a bunk that they actually walked to from the pasture it wasn't unusual for them to be productive into their teens, now the teens is rare for a loafing barn cow, hell to most commercial farms 10 is a rarity
 
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Peace said:
That horse if from some awesome cutting stock...

I think the girl needs a whole lot more training than the horse...maybe you could hedge your bet and charge her about $5000 to show her how to actually handle a horse. Basic stuff like how to lead, be the leader and actual ground work and basic horsemanship...that's worth $5000 to me. Probably more with a horse like that.

edit*** and how to feed a horse and that they're not pets unless her objective is to make them pets or money pits... stuff like this really irritates me...spend money on training yourself, then you can make money on training...until then she shouldn't touch a lead line, or feed that isn't what was laid out for her...I might trust her to fill their water if needed...

As far as dairy cattle not getting old, most of that is how that industry treats the cattle. They're used hot and fast...kept in loafing barns so they don't get exercise and breeding has caused them to get thinner in the rear end so they give out faster. Add into that the production increases and pumping feed through them and you have a recipe for a short life... When I was a kid and the cows were let out onto a pasture and fed in a bunk that they actually walked to from the pasture it wasn't unusual for them to be productive into their teens, now the teens is rare for a loafing barn cow, hell to most commercial farms 10 is a rarity
Click to expand...
His dam was a Mr. Gunsmoke granddaughter I sold Dan 15 years ago. Gunsmoke was a hell of a cutting horse, but didn;t go so far in NCHA because of the chrome prejudice thing back the, So Dale concentrated on Reining with him, and he was phenominal. So many of his foals were crop-outs and had to be registered as Paints back then. Today they would all have had AQHA papers. He is also regarded as a great broodmare sire. That mare also had Poco, Jessie James and Peppy San on her papers. This colt sure had the pedigree to cut a cow!

This gal has hung around Dan since she was 12, one of those horse crazy gals. She is a pretty damn good can chaser, but her barrel horses are all idiots...like most are these days. Dan started this colt, putting her in the saddle and was always in the arena with her. This past year he let her take him to ride on her own, and I reckon she doesn't know how to ride anything but a crazy barrel horse with no brakes. She wouldn;t listen to me anyhow, she is a protogee(sp)?) of a local barrel racer who produces 1D horses that are pure idiots, but are faster than the word of God. Takes two men on each side to get them in the arena, and 20 acres to get them stopped, after they come out of the arena where they just blew everyone away, often the fastest by .5 to a whole second. She won't be getting on Frank again.

I have learned alot just from this thread about the dairy cow thing. These cows are all 3/4 Braunvieh 1/4 Brown Swiss except for one that is 50/50. After what everyone on here has said, and after seeing them up-close Monday, I am not worried. They seem to be in excellent shape. They have been birthing big ole Charolais calves every year, so calving Brahma caves ought to be easy on them.
Which reminds me....I need some more people's opinion on something, though. @Caustic Burno , @Brute 23 , @Son of Butch , or anyone else fooling with "Brimmer" crosses: Reckon that red bull will be ok? Would it be better to tell him I want a grey one? Or is it 6 of one, half a dozen of another?
 
A few thoughts on the discussion about running the bull with the cows year round with cows calving every 10 months. 10 months is 304 days. Gestation length is about 283 days. That would allow 21 days for that cow to recover from calving, start cycling and get settled on first breeding. I suspect that is a little optimistic. With good nutrition and fertility, 11 months is more realistic for a portion of the cows.
People that have a defined calving season generally do that so that most calves are born in a selected fixed time period each year relative to their environment, forage and nutrition, weather, weaning time, selling/marketing plan, labor availability, etc. Those factors hopefully lead to uniformity and better performance.
 
Warren Allison said:
His dam was a Mr. Gunsmoke granddaughter I sold Dan 15 years ago. Gunsmoke was a hell of a cutting horse, but didn;t go so far in NCHA because of the chrome prejudice thing back the, So Dale concentrated on Reining with him, and he was phenominal. So many of his foals were crop-outs and had to be registered as Paints back then. Today they would all have had AQHA papers. He is also regarded as a great broodmare sire. That mare also had Poco, Jessie James and Peppy San on her papers. This colt sure had the pedigree to cut a cow!

This gal has hung around Dan since she was 12, one of those horse crazy gals. She is a pretty damn good can chaser, but her barrel horses are all idiots...like most are these days. Dan started this colt, putting her in the saddle and was always in the arena with her. This past year he let her take him to ride on her own, and I reckon she doesn't know how to ride anything but a crazy barrel horse with no brakes. She wouldn;t listen to me anyhow, she is a protogee(sp)?) of a local barrel racer who produces 1D horses that are pure idiots, but are faster than the word of God. Takes two men on each side to get them in the arena, and 20 acres to get them stopped, after they come out of the arena where they just blew everyone away, often the fastest by .5 to a whole second. She won't be getting on Frank again.

I have learned alot just from this thread about the dairy cow thing. These cows are all 3/4 Braunvieh 1/4 Brown Swiss except for one that is 50/50. After what everyone on here has said, and after seeing them up-close Monday, I am not worried. They seem to be in excellent shape. They have been birthing big ole Charolais calves every year, so calving Brahma caves ought to be easy on them.
Which reminds me....I need some more people's opinion on something, though. @Caustic Burno , @Brute 23 , @Son of Butch , or anyone else fooling with "Brimmer" crosses: Reckon that red bull will be ok? Would it be better to tell him I want a grey one? Or is it 6 of one, half a dozen of another?
Click to expand...

Got it...too young and foolish to understand that investing in yourself is the best investment.

I agree, there are a lot of people on this forum that know where the bear craps....it's a good deal
 
Warren Allison said:
His dam was a Mr. Gunsmoke granddaughter I sold Dan 15 years ago. Gunsmoke was a hell of a cutting horse, but didn;t go so far in NCHA because of the chrome prejudice thing back the, So Dale concentrated on Reining with him, and he was phenominal. So many of his foals were crop-outs and had to be registered as Paints back then. Today they would all have had AQHA papers. He is also regarded as a great broodmare sire. That mare also had Poco, Jessie James and Peppy San on her papers. This colt sure had the pedigree to cut a cow!

This gal has hung around Dan since she was 12, one of those horse crazy gals. She is a pretty damn good can chaser, but her barrel horses are all idiots...like most are these days. Dan started this colt, putting her in the saddle and was always in the arena with her. This past year he let her take him to ride on her own, and I reckon she doesn't know how to ride anything but a crazy barrel horse with no brakes. She wouldn;t listen to me anyhow, she is a protogee(sp)?) of a local barrel racer who produces 1D horses that are pure idiots, but are faster than the word of God. Takes two men on each side to get them in the arena, and 20 acres to get them stopped, after they come out of the arena where they just blew everyone away, often the fastest by .5 to a whole second. She won't be getting on Frank again.

I have learned alot just from this thread about the dairy cow thing. These cows are all 3/4 Braunvieh 1/4 Brown Swiss except for one that is 50/50. After what everyone on here has said, and after seeing them up-close Monday, I am not worried. They seem to be in excellent shape. They have been birthing big ole Charolais calves every year, so calving Brahma caves ought to be easy on them.
Which reminds me....I need some more people's opinion on something, though. @Caustic Burno , @Brute 23 , @Son of Butch , or anyone else fooling with "Brimmer" crosses: Reckon that red bull will be ok? Would it be better to tell him I want a grey one? Or is it 6 of one, half a dozen of another?
Click to expand...
I would want a V-8 grey.
 
simme said:
A few thoughts on the discussion about running the bull with the cows year round with cows calving every 10 months. 10 months is 304 days. Gestation length is about 283 days. That would allow 21 days for that cow to recover from calving, start cycling and get settled on first breeding. I suspect that is a little optimistic. With good nutrition and fertility, 11 months is more realistic for a portion of the cows.
People that have a defined calving season generally do that so that most calves are born in a selected fixed time period each year relative to their environment, forage and nutrition, weather, weaning time, selling/marketing plan, labor availability, etc. Those factors hopefully lead to uniformity and better performance.
Click to expand...
Simme, I don't think anyone was saying that they always calve in 10 months. Someone asked if people who run year round bulls end up with a cows whose due date backs up 2 months each time. I agree, they most likely calve every 11 mos. @Travlr , that is probably another reason to wean at 400+ lbs or 6 mos, which ever comes first. . If you had bulls in there year round, you would want to get the heifer calves out as soon as possible.
 
My dad had dairy cross beef cows that would live and calve into their late teens. One holstien/ angus cross was 22. It's more the environment than the breed. Dairy cows are pushed on high protein to produce milk and live on concrete. Their bags and feet break down early. The average cull dairy cows are like 7 or 8 years old. Dairies around us have a hoof trimming schedule so the cows are trimmed every 6 months. Put a dairy cow on grass pasture where they walk around and natuarally wear their hoofs and they can live a long time.
 
Travlr said:
Nice... but why the concern over color? Have you seen the bull the guy plans to use?
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I wasn't really concerned, just asked which color might work the best on those cows, or if the bull color would even affect the calf color? Most of the half Brahma and half Jeresy or Brown Swiss I have seen were by grey bulls. I don't know that I have seen any of this cross by a red bull, but may have and just didn't know it. I guess I will know in 9-10 months though. I told him to go ahead with what he had. At least is is sexed and the bull is polled. If I had the time to find a grey sexed polled bull, I might would AI 8 to red and 8 to grey. just to see for myself.
 
IDK how Brahman color works in that equation, but my experience with Braunvieh over red and red-carrier SimAngus and SimAngusXShorthorn cows is that you get either a red brindle or a dark wild-color cow, like these heifers below:

I'm not sorry to be out of the cattle business, but if I had a deal like those BraunviehxBrownSwiss cows come up... I'd have to STRONGLY consider getting back in. I don't think you can go wrong with them. Those Braunvieh cows are noted for longevity & productivity... they'll hang in almost as long as an old Brahman cow.
Be sure to treat us to some photos!

As others have said, the 'short lifespan' deal for dairy cows is in a high-production, high stress environment where they're on concrete, eating a high-grain ration for maximum milk production... they just break down or burn out early. As a 'beef cow'... they can last a lot longer, and I'd sure give the nod to Brown Swiss over Holstein for that sort of adaptation. Most of the Braunvieh don't milk so hard that they won't breed back.
 

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Lucky_P said:
IDK how Brahman color works in that equation, but my experience with Braunvieh over red and red-carrier SimAngus and SimAngusXShorthorn cows is that you get either a red brindle or a dark wild-color cow, like these heifers below:

I'm not sorry to be out of the cattle business, but if I had a deal like those BraunviehxBrownSwiss cows come up... I'd have to STRONGLY consider getting back in. I don't think you can go wrong with them. Those Braunvieh cows are noted for longevity & productivity... they'll hang in almost as long as an old Brahman cow.
Be sure to treat us to some photos!

As others have said, the 'short lifespan' deal for dairy cows is in a high-production, high stress environment where they're on concrete, eating a high-grain ration for maximum milk production... they just break down or burn out early. As a 'beef cow'... they can last a lot longer, and I'd sure give the nod to Brown Swiss over Holstein for that sort of adaptation. Most of the Braunvieh don't milk so hard that they won't breed back.
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Thanks, Lucky. He is going to AI them to the red bull Saturday. I sure will get some good pics when those calves get here next August. The more I hear from others on here, the more confident I am in this deal. Gonna keep them at my clients place in south Ga, and will have no feed, vet supply or any other inputs...just helping him work his herd too. My only concern is them calving down in south Ga in August. but not too worried. I have done a lot of studying the past week or so, and I think just a Barunvieh /Brahma cross will do as well as these Br x Braunvieh/ Brown Swiss will do. But them I get to wondering what is the reason you don't see this Braun/Brah cross much. No where near as much as Beefmaster Gert, Brangus and Braford, Or even as many as Simbrah or Charbray. Oh well, won't be the first time I was guilty of overthinking something to death! LOL
 
I used only fullblood Braunvieh sires and although all my cows were smooth polled, there was some Holstein and fullblood Simmental back in the woodpile behind some of them, so horns and scurs both showed up in some of those calves. No African Horn Gene behind any of mine, but CB raises a valid point.
 
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Lucky_P said:
I used only fullblood Braunvieh sires and although all my cows were smooth polled, there was some Holstein and fullblood Simmental back in the woodpile behind some of them, so horns and scurs both showed up in some of those calves. No African Horn Gene behind any of mine, but CB raises a valid point.
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That reminds me. I was out there talking to Dan yesterday. We were talking about how Charolais had changed a lot from the cow-killers of 50 years ago. I told him I made a vow in about 1972 to never, ever have anything to do with a Char or Simmental bull. I told him I liked the Char and the original red & white Simmental cows we had back then. Those were big ole red & white cows, and looked like a dual purpose or maybe a dairy cow that was not commercially milked. Big bags with plenty of milk for their big calves. I said I hadn't seen any like that in decades. He told me to get in the Gator..that he wanted to show me something. He said that years ago, he had gotten some semen from an old type Simm bull. He called it a Flicka or Flecker or something like that. Anyhow, they bred some of their Brown Swiss/Braunviehs with it, and got some 1/2 Simm 1/4 BS 1/4 Brau recip cows. We went over to their pasture and there were six that were gonna calve in December. Looked just like the Simmentals I remember. with very nice looking udders. 2 of them were daughters of the BS/Braun cow I bought. He said the oldest was 8 and the youngest was 5. I asked him if they were gonna sell these, and he said not for a few years. He said he had some of that semen in the tank and If I wanted some cows like that, we would AI some of mine with it. I told him no, let's just stick to the original plan with the Brahma. However, I been thinking on it this morning, about maybe doing half of them with this Simm. I'd have 8 half Brahma and 8 half red & white old timey Simms. But, these cows are going to live in south Ga 3 and a half hours for me, so doubt I will be around when they calve. Dan said they didn't have to assist with any of these 6 half Simms, though. Hell, I dunno. What do all of y'all think a half Braun, half "Flicka" Simmental heifer would be worth? More than a half brahma?
 
Warren Allison said:
That reminds me. I was out there talking to Dan yesterday. We were talking about how Charolais had changed a lot from the cow-killers of 50 years ago. I told him I made a vow in about 1972 to never, ever have anything to do with a Char or Simmental bull. I told him I liked the Char and the original red & white Simmental cows we had back then. Those were big ole red & white cows, and looked like a dual purpose or maybe a dairy cow that was not commercially milked. Big bags with plenty of milk for their big calves. I said I hadn't seen any like that in decades. He told me to get in the Gator..that he wanted to show me something. He said that years ago, he had gotten some semen from an old type Simm bull. He called it a Flicka or Flecker or something like that. Anyhow, they bred some of their Brown Swiss/Braunviehs with it, and got some 1/2 Simm 1/4 BS 1/4 Brau recip cows. We went over to their pasture and there were six that were gonna calve in December. Looked just like the Simmentals I remember. with very nice looking udders. 2 of them were daughters of the BS/Braun cow I bought. He said the oldest was 8 and the youngest was 5. I asked him if they were gonna sell these, and he said not for a few years. He said he had some of that semen in the tank and If I wanted some cows like that, we would AI some of mine with it. I told him no, let's just stick to the original plan with the Brahma. However, I been thinking on it this morning, about maybe doing half of them with this Simm. I'd have 8 half Brahma and 8 half red & white old timey Simms. But, these cows are going to live in south Ga 3 and a half hours for me, so doubt I will be around when they calve. Dan said they didn't have to assist with any of these 6 half Simms, though. Hell, I dunno. What do all of y'all think a half Braun, half "Flicka" Simmental heifer would be worth? More than a half brahma?
Click to expand...
fleckvieh cattle

My two cents... in southern heat the Brimmer will do better. If it was on my place in South Dakota I'd be choosing the Fleckvieh.
Wish I'd never put a price on the place... damn.
 
Travlr said:
fleckvieh cattle

My two cents... in southern heat the Brimmer will do better. If it was on my place in South Dakota I'd be choosing the Fleckvieh.
Wish I'd never put a price on the place... damn.
Click to expand...
Yep! That's what Dan called them. He said they were the same as Simmental,, that the Fleckvieh was German or something for Simmental? Those on that page you sent the link for, and those recip cows, look like what I remembered Simmental being. So, are these 2 different breeds? Is there anymore Simms like these since they have turned Simms into mostly Angus?
 
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