Travlr
Well-known member
I'm not much informed on Simmental. One breed I've never owned...
Maybe someone here that has them can give you answers.
@Jeanne - Simme Valley
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Opinions needed, especially form those with Brown Swiss experience
- Thread starter Warren Allison
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Maybe someone here that has them can give you answers.
@Jeanne - Simme Valley
Lucky_P
Well-known member
Warren,
Fleckvieh ('spotted cow' in German) are the German/Austrian strain of the Simmental breed... many of the early importations to the US were the Swiss & French types... Montbeliard, Pie Rouge, Abondance, etc.
The original Fleckvieh imports tended to be more heavily muscled, shorter-framed - kind of a dual- or triple-purpose animal than the Swiss/French strains which looked very 'dairy' to me, if more robust in bone and muscle.
We used several Fleckvieh and Fleckvieh-influenced sires in our herd back in the late 1980s... really liked ABR Sir Arnold G809 (photo below); had some nice daughters/granddaughters that stayed in the herd for quite a while. At the time, he was a 5-trait leader, for birthweight, calving ease, WW, YW, maternal calving ease, in what was a really moderate package in the day...
Bred a group of Holstein heifers to his full-sib, ABR Sir Arnold's Image, in 1990, but sold them as springing heifers to a dairyman, and I never got to see the calves. Bet they were nice!
In south GA... I'd probably be inclined to stick to the Brahman breeding plan. But... Fleckvieh over that Braunvieh/Brown Swiss would probably make some mighty nice cattle!
Fleckvieh ('spotted cow' in German) are the German/Austrian strain of the Simmental breed... many of the early importations to the US were the Swiss & French types... Montbeliard, Pie Rouge, Abondance, etc.
The original Fleckvieh imports tended to be more heavily muscled, shorter-framed - kind of a dual- or triple-purpose animal than the Swiss/French strains which looked very 'dairy' to me, if more robust in bone and muscle.
We used several Fleckvieh and Fleckvieh-influenced sires in our herd back in the late 1980s... really liked ABR Sir Arnold G809 (photo below); had some nice daughters/granddaughters that stayed in the herd for quite a while. At the time, he was a 5-trait leader, for birthweight, calving ease, WW, YW, maternal calving ease, in what was a really moderate package in the day...
Bred a group of Holstein heifers to his full-sib, ABR Sir Arnold's Image, in 1990, but sold them as springing heifers to a dairyman, and I never got to see the calves. Bet they were nice!
In south GA... I'd probably be inclined to stick to the Brahman breeding plan. But... Fleckvieh over that Braunvieh/Brown Swiss would probably make some mighty nice cattle!
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He bred them all with the Brahma sexed semen. But if some don't take, he said we could re-breed them with that Simm. It was less than a week after I sold my Br x Chianina and my Br x Chi-Angus heifer that the client called about buying that herd of Brahmas for him, and a couple of days after that when I ran -up on this deal with the recip cows. And my client with the Brahmas told me I could bring those 16 cows down to his place. If I had known all of this before hand, I would have kept them, even though they gonna have @!%$# Corriente calves . As far as that goes, I could have sold the Br x Chianina to my client for $2250, since that is what he is gonna do with those Brahmas...breed half to Chianina and half to Charolais, then breed the F1s to the opposite bull. That heifer would have put him a whole year ahead of that game.
I actually didn't sell her to Scott...we had taken them to his house to preg check and when I sold the ChiAng one, he said just leave the other with him, and he'd breed her to a Charolais next year. She is due in February, and so are those 80 Brahmas..Feb and March. I might just get her back and take her over there. Scott has put her back in the Kudzu pasture with out 4 Corr heifers. I may just get here when we go hunting next weekend, and tell him he can have her calf back, and tell him any bull calves the 4 Corrs have are all his. I could sell her to my client, or keep her and breed her Charolais when we do his Brahmas next spring. Or, take a straw of Dan's Felckvieh down there when we do. I can't get that one off my mind. Sorry to ramble on.. I just thought of this idea while typing the pararagrah above. Kinda like thinking out loud.
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I did it. I am keeping the Ruger 44 mag semi-auto rifle and getting the heifer back. I gave him my half of the 4 remaining Corr heifers for her, and gonna sell her to my client for what the other 80 Brahma heifers cost.
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The last 2 days I carried the BS x Braunv cows down to my client in south Ga, that I bought the 80 brahmas for. I used Dan's 32 foot aluminum enclose stock trailer. It is 8' wide and we put 8 on it. Dan led them on one at a time in a rope halter, loaded them like you would a horse, and tied them side ways in the trailer. I put the 1/2 Brown Swiss 1/2 Braunvieh cow on last. Named her Isabell too. When I got down there, the client came out and said let's put them in the covered corral for now. I untied all the cows but Isabelle, got her off and led her to the corral, and the other 7 just followed along behind her. He wanted to buy Isabelle! Said as gentle as she was he bet she could be a nurse cow and he needed one. I told him she was about 14 years old, and didn;t know how many more calves she could have. So I told him I would just give her to him..with him letting me keep the other 15 down there, and all.
I left and went on down to the Kudzu pasture to do some bird hunting. 1st time this season it was colf enough to run the setters. Scott and his boys had been hired to demolish some metal storage sheds at a local grain warehouse/gin, and paid to haul it off. He got some 42 foot trusses, al of the metal stringers, and al of the metal siding and roofing and took that to his place. They had used some telephone polls and built us 22'wide by 40 foot deep pole barn beside the corral, down next to the road. He enclosed the end by the road, and had built us an 8 x10 tack room with a lock in one back corner, and built an 8 x14 kennel beside it. The barn had a 10' overhang on both sides, one side actually inside the corral. If we ever wanted to leave something in that end of the corral for a while, it will have shelter to get under now. Our corral is 360 feet by 100 feet, and is cut with a cross fence of panels making a 100 x 100 pen at the end by the road, with two 8' gates that can make a 16 foot opening between the 2 sides. He already had our hunting horses in the little pen with a round bale of coastal and a 250 gal water trough in it. He had put a 40' gutter on that overhang and had the down spout over the water trough. I told him to check with the EMC and get us power to that barn, and I'd pay for that. He had gotten a truck load of lights and fans out of the building when he tore it down.
Yesterday I carried my other 8 cows down to my client's, and he came down to the corral where I was unloading. He got out his checkbook and was grinning like a dead pig in sunshine. He said " Harris, I have been watching these cows since you left yesterday. Walked around al of them, petted them and all, and I WANT them. 16 of them, and I need to pay you for that Chi- Brahma heifer, so that would be $37,400,right? $2200 each? I said "well hell no. To start with I gave you Isabella, so there is only 15 of those cows. I have to get that Corriente calf back off the Chi- Brahma to give to Scott, so I am just charging $1700 for her, not $2200. And those other cows are 10-12 years old. I will let you buy them for $800 each..$12k" (Damndest negotiation I have ever been in selling cows.. me trying to charge the buyers less, and the buyer countering with offering more!!) He started writing in his check book, tore out a check, folded it and handed it to me. Should have been $13,700. It was for $17,700!! He said " $1k each is as low as I will go on those cows, and I am paying for Isabella too!!" So, I stopped arguing and put the check in my pocket. He said "When I first contacted you about buying a herd of Brahmas for me, I wanted 100 cows. With those 80, these 16 and the chi-Br heifer, that's 97, and that's close enough. and I am happy with each one of them."
On the way over to see how Frank was coming along, I asked myself "what the hell is wrong with me?!! I just negotiated my self out of 20k the man was willing to pay!" I think I am getting either too soft hearted or too soft-headed, one, to be in the trading business. I am probably a little of both!
I left and went on down to the Kudzu pasture to do some bird hunting. 1st time this season it was colf enough to run the setters. Scott and his boys had been hired to demolish some metal storage sheds at a local grain warehouse/gin, and paid to haul it off. He got some 42 foot trusses, al of the metal stringers, and al of the metal siding and roofing and took that to his place. They had used some telephone polls and built us 22'wide by 40 foot deep pole barn beside the corral, down next to the road. He enclosed the end by the road, and had built us an 8 x10 tack room with a lock in one back corner, and built an 8 x14 kennel beside it. The barn had a 10' overhang on both sides, one side actually inside the corral. If we ever wanted to leave something in that end of the corral for a while, it will have shelter to get under now. Our corral is 360 feet by 100 feet, and is cut with a cross fence of panels making a 100 x 100 pen at the end by the road, with two 8' gates that can make a 16 foot opening between the 2 sides. He already had our hunting horses in the little pen with a round bale of coastal and a 250 gal water trough in it. He had put a 40' gutter on that overhang and had the down spout over the water trough. I told him to check with the EMC and get us power to that barn, and I'd pay for that. He had gotten a truck load of lights and fans out of the building when he tore it down.
Yesterday I carried my other 8 cows down to my client's, and he came down to the corral where I was unloading. He got out his checkbook and was grinning like a dead pig in sunshine. He said " Harris, I have been watching these cows since you left yesterday. Walked around al of them, petted them and all, and I WANT them. 16 of them, and I need to pay you for that Chi- Brahma heifer, so that would be $37,400,right? $2200 each? I said "well hell no. To start with I gave you Isabella, so there is only 15 of those cows. I have to get that Corriente calf back off the Chi- Brahma to give to Scott, so I am just charging $1700 for her, not $2200. And those other cows are 10-12 years old. I will let you buy them for $800 each..$12k" (Damndest negotiation I have ever been in selling cows.. me trying to charge the buyers less, and the buyer countering with offering more!!) He started writing in his check book, tore out a check, folded it and handed it to me. Should have been $13,700. It was for $17,700!! He said " $1k each is as low as I will go on those cows, and I am paying for Isabella too!!" So, I stopped arguing and put the check in my pocket. He said "When I first contacted you about buying a herd of Brahmas for me, I wanted 100 cows. With those 80, these 16 and the chi-Br heifer, that's 97, and that's close enough. and I am happy with each one of them."
On the way over to see how Frank was coming along, I asked myself "what the hell is wrong with me?!! I just negotiated my self out of 20k the man was willing to pay!" I think I am getting either too soft hearted or too soft-headed, one, to be in the trading business. I am probably a little of both!
Ky hills
Well-known member
That reminds me of a few years ago, wife and I were at a stockyards for a monthly cow sale. Bought a few through the ring, and attempted to buy a few more, but the seller passed them. On our way to pay for the one we got, the seller approached us and said if we wanted the cows he would take such and such for them. Wasn't a whole lot more, and they were Herefords so my wife was wanting them. He was telling a sad sad story and she offered him $50 more a head, I bout fell over. I bet that cattle trader smiled all the way home.
Always kinda liked Braunviehs, from what little I've seen. I'd say they make good cows and raise big calves
Always kinda liked Braunviehs, from what little I've seen. I'd say they make good cows and raise big calves
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Fleckvieh is the most popular strain of Fullblood Simmental used here in US. As mentioned, they are much more meaty, and a nice dark red, not diluted yellows like the original imports.
If your friend is weaning each calf at 205 days, he's the first person I ever heard of doing that. 205 days is the standard WW age....so you can compare apples to apples.
If you have a 60 day calving season, then you have about 60 day spread in your calves If you wean all on the same day. By adjusting to a 205 age wt, you know what cows weaned the heaviest down to the lightest.
It is a management tool.
If your friend is weaning each calf at 205 days, he's the first person I ever heard of doing that. 205 days is the standard WW age....so you can compare apples to apples.
If you have a 60 day calving season, then you have about 60 day spread in your calves If you wean all on the same day. By adjusting to a 205 age wt, you know what cows weaned the heaviest down to the lightest.
It is a management tool.
OP
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When I saw these they had white Charolais calves on them form the donor cows, but yes, they were big heifers They were just weaning them ,as each calf got 200-something days old..is it 205?... and I:d guess they were 700 or close to it. I will ask Dan how much, next time I think of it. He did show me some 1/2 Fleckvieh..looked like the old timey red & white Simmentals.... recip cows that some of my cows had birthed. They were a little bigger than the red & white Simm cows I have seen, so might have gotten a little bit of high bread vinegar from that Simm/Braunvieh cross.
I am anxious to see what their Brahma calves look like. I asked the guy what he was going to breed them too once they calved next fall, and he said the Charolais and Chianina bulls he was going to use on the Brahmas. He said their 1/2 Brahma hiefers he'd use in the same spot in his prgram as he will use the Br x Charolais heifers.
farmerjan
Well-known member
I guess congrats on selling those swiss crossed cows... I hope Isabelle has a good life there and he sounds like he is happy with them.
How has the colt come along that you were riding?
How has the colt come along that you were riding?
OP
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I guess he does it at actually 205 days because there are just 16 heifer calves, from just 2 donor dams. He had 2 -3 reach that age the same day, and all but one was weaned in about 6 days. The other was .... I think he said.... 3 weeks behind the others.
Now, I remember the SImms we first got down here in the late 60's or early 70's being about the same color as a Hereford. The paler, almost yellow ones I remember, were ones shown in the new-at-that-time commercial steer and heifer categories at the fairs that were Char/ Simm crosses. My little brother showed these for 3 years in high school, and just turned them out with our grand daddy's angus herd every year. They never had any trouble calving at all, and had black baldy calves every year that you could almost stand in the pasture every day and watch them grow. They would almost consistently weigh 75-100lbs more than the pb Angus at weaning. None of these calves came out smokey, but there were only 6 of these cows at the most. If we had more in number I am sure that dilute gene would have shown up in some of the calves. I am surprised we don't see more of these cows today.
In 78-79, I was dating a barrel racer who's daddy raised registered Simmental, the red & white ones. He bought 8 Chi-angus cows at a UGA sale, and bred them to one of his Simm bulls. They raised some gigantic black baldies, and he sold those heifers for what he sold his reg Simms for. I don't think you could get Chi-Angus bulls back then in the US, so be bred some of his reg Simm cows to a Brangus that year, and got the same results. Big ole black baldies with a touch of ear. When she and I parted ways at the end of 79, he was only breeding his 10 or so best Simm cows..out of his 50 cow herd..to Simm bulls. The rest he bred to Brangus.
Lee VanRoss
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Did McMurtry ever get in touch with you?
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Jan, you ought to see him working a cow on the rail! And he has him circling the cow both ways almost as good as a g finished NRCHA contender! Don't know yet how he would do in the reining part yet. He needs about another year on him before he is started on that. I am going to tell Dan that it looks like NRCHA is going to be the way to go with this one. It just wouldn't be worth 6 figures to campaign a gelding in NCHA competition. If Dan wants to go that route, Reined Cowhorse, I am just gonna get him and my trainer friend together, and bow out of it. If he doesn't, I will go get him and bring him back and start trying him on the heel end. That was my plan anyway, until yesterday when Mr. Smith paid me that $17k for those cows! I been sitting on my hands all day to keep from picking up the phone and calling Dan to tell him I want to buy him! I had found a team of Percheron mules, 8 yr old mare m,ules...by a 16 hd Mammoth Jack and out of 2 full sister Percheron mares. They work single or double and they both ride. 16.2 hds. I had called Scott and told him about them. He said if I got them,. he was going to buy this rubber tired buckboard a neighbor had. We'd take the front bucket seats and the 2 rear bench seats out of his junked out Suburban, mount them on it and put a dog box on back, and we'd have us a quail hunting rig for sure. THAT'S what I need to do...I don't need that colt. I have had or trained 100's of horses in the last 62 years...500 I counted up one time in 2002..and only 2 or 3 had this certain something that is hard to explain to someone who hasn't experienced it. and it sounds stupid to try to explain it to regular people. Every once in a while...and I mean very rarely, there comes a horse that you and he (or she) somehow communicate at a sub-conscience level...best way I can explain it.. that he knows what you want...what you are about to do, before you verbally or via signal tell him. And you develope a sense of what he is about to do, or is thinking, or feels before he des it. Or shows it. An old horseman that took me under his wing as a kid, called it "becoming a Centaur". Anyway, sounds dumb, I know. Someone young enough and talented enough needs to get this horse.
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I don't know him. Who is he? How was he going to contact me?
farmerjan
Well-known member
No not dumb.... not at all....
Lee VanRoss
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Sorry, That was routed wrong,,
Lucky_P
Well-known member
Don't forget to treat us with some photos of those calves when they hit the ground.
Heck, I'd like to see some pics of these girls right now.
Heck, I'd like to see some pics of these girls right now.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Sounds to me like you just need a little nudge to get off your hands and grab up that colt before it's too late.
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Once again, I thought back on my Granddaddy's advice...a piece of advice that has served me wll through the years. and saved me tons of money. He said " Son, when you find that whatever that you have been looking for forever. And it is exactly how you wanted it. And you have the money to buy it. And it is priced way cheaper than others you have found. Make yourself walk away and sleep on it over night. Ask your self 'Is there any way I could possibly survive without that (whatever it is)?' If the answer is yes, you could survive without buying it, then don't."
This morning, Bo, the trainer, rode Frank out to see about some of those 1/2 Bison cows that were due to calf. He found one, still wet, and rode up to it to get off and check it out. The momma was excited and blowing, etc, so Bo kept one eye on her as he eased down and walked over to the calf. Well, she rushed at him, and Frank got down, pinned those ears back, and lunged at her, popping his teeth at her, She backed off and started at them again, and he wheeled and backed up,, kicking the **** out of her for a good 20 yards. Then just stood there with his ears pinned back, watching her and swaying his head side to side. He called me and told me, and said " We might need to re-think the cutting horse thing", and told me what Frank did. He said " Damn, Warren, you would have thought it was 1949 and It was Jessie James out there on that cow." Now Bo wants to buy him. If that happens it will be best for the horse. If he doesn;t, and I bring him back, he will be as good as mine except Dan will pay for everything. I hope he sells him to Bo, though.
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I will be going down there when the Brahmas start calving next month, and will make a pic of the Brauns then, and their calves in September. I just don't have a Smartphone on me when I am outside doing stuff. I have one..it is my office phone number...but I carry a Verizon flip phone. It fits in my pocket, shirt pocket, cigarrette pack. I have dropped it off my motorcycle, went back and picked up the pieces and put it back together, and it works fine. If not, they are $12.99 at Walmart. I keep my Smart phone office number forwarded to it, so I don't have to carry it around.
greybeard
Well-known member
I thought I was the only one on the planet still using a Verizon flip phone, tho mine wasn't $12.99. Pretty tough but Only thing I don't like about it is it's weight. It's heavy.
