Old Cow...can I keep her alive long enough to calve?

[branguscowgirl]

Wow Nesikep, that is a fricking BIG calf!!

 

[Nesikep]

I'm wondering if one of my first-timers isn't going to have twins... I was going to give one to Mega (the one with the monster), but would think twice about it now... she's got her work cut out and with hers being so big he's going to hog it all anyhow

 

[Wisteria Farms]

Yes, very busy. After they were born (about 1p.m.) they shared a 2qt bottle of good colostrum...then tried in the evening and nothing. Suck reflex pretty much disappeared. I told hubby I was tubing it in them and he was like "she's too small!!!" (he won't tell anyone how he sat loving her and whispering sweet-nothings to her)haha. I said... "yes she's too small but she's going to be too dead if we don't get this in her!!". So we got 1qt in each of them last night.

This morning it was a mixed bag... the heifer actually sucked (though not vigorously) her 1/2 a bottle but remains laying under the heat lamp. The bull was up looking for food but has virtually no suck reflex. I'm going to pick up a vitamin shot for them both this a.m. (I have a vial of "dumb calf" in the fridge but it is a mix of all kinds of things including a little dex I believe and I'm not sure they should have that with mom being induced with dex... does anyone know??") In the past that has really "woke up" some big doofy bullcalves.

I feel good about these two but I've also read where people lose one or both anywhere from a couple days to a week later so I'm hoping things go uphill and not down.
By the way... they have teeth and a decent coat of hair...so that tells me they are more than likely are NOT really preemie (something I worried about with not knowing her due date FOR SURE).

Jeff is off running this morning but Granny is the next item on the list...to see what we can do for her. Thanks again for all the concern...

 

[PLTannery]

If they are penned with mom, they can suck her laying down. I had a cow slip in the mud last year and go down... She fed her bull calf (born 3 days after her fall) for the first month, mostly laying down.

Have you tried actually pushing up on her rump when she tries to stand? Sometimes they just need a little umpf. Try a Rib bump with one person and someone else helping...

Great to hear you have two live ones! And definitely test the heifer... you have a 1 in 10 chance she's normal (and I've owned one of those).

 

[branguscowgirl]

If they are penned with mom, they can suck her laying down. I had a cow slip in the mud last year and go down... She fed her bull calf (born 3 days after her fall) for the first month, mostly laying down.

Have you tried actually pushing up on her rump when she tries to stand? Sometimes they just need a little umpf. Try a Rib bump with one person and someone else helping...

Great to hear you have two live ones! And definitely test the heifer... you have a 1 in 10 chance she's normal (and I've owned one of those).

I think the fear of her struggling to stand would be a bit dangerous to the calves, if left by her side without constant supervision. Too easy for her to fall over on one.

 

[Wisteria Farms]

Agree... that's why we removed them after she was able to clean them a bit. With the vet doing all her business on the tail end, Granny was moving around and I was afraid she would get them with one of her front feet! Uploading a current photo now...

 

[Wisteria Farms]

Here they are after eating their lunch... OH MY were we happy... they BOTH found their "sucker" and ate like champs. They were crow hopping around, happy as could be. Weather outside SUCKS right now... it was 27 two nights ago when we were in the barn and right now the wind is blowing like crazy! I'm glad they're inside!
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The silver is the bull and the dark is the heifer. I'm going to pray for that 1 in 10. When the vet was here she said neighbors of ours, the Moore's, have had several that have bred. So I'll definitely get whatever blood test it is that determines it. I'm just curious... COULD SHE be used as a recip cow??? I would raise her strictly with that in mind if it was possible. I've read that its their ovaries that are underdeveloped... but does that mean the uterine environment (hormones) are off kilter too... so that she couldn't carry one either???

 

[Wisteria Farms]

By the way, my avatar is their daddy.... Eagles Run Tor 359T... he's a brute but delivers GREAT birthweights (70's) and has a wonderful temperament. If I had to fault him, his ears bug me... I like bigger ears but he had an ADG of 3.69 at Cal Poly in 2008 so I'll keep him... LOL. Tor's sire is Willalooka Pharaoh P47 out of Australia (this is for any Murray Grey fans out there. I know the rest of you don't really care...haha).

 

[Workinonit Farm]

Great news about the babies!

So how's Granny doing?

Katherine

 

[branguscowgirl]

Very exciting that the calves are sucking well! :clap:
I do not know much about "freemartins." But you asked about ovaries and being a Recip. A female needs hormones that are secreted by the ovaries in order to maintain a pregnancy. (That much I do know.) So if the ovaries are affected, then no. No pregnancy.

 

[greybeard]

OK...some of the pics didn't come through... what did I do wrong???

Only thing I see wrong is Double img tags. Let's see what happens if one set is deleted.

Here is a picture is her and the babies. The Vet was gathering her stuff for the epidural and clean out so we took the shot, however Granny started fussing a bit with her front legs so we moved the calves.

 

[PLTannery]

In most freemartins the reproductive tract does not develop at all. But simply dead ends a short way into the body. The few I've seen the insides of have ovary like glands, but no identifiable uterus. The "test" is often with a device that determines the depth of the tract. If it is over a certain length your chances are very good that it is normal.

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

Here they are after eating their lunch... OH MY were we happy... they BOTH found their "sucker" and ate like champs. They were crow hopping around, happy as could be. Weather outside SUCKS right now... it was 27 two nights ago when we were in the barn and right now the wind is blowing like crazy! I'm glad they're inside!

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The silver is the bull and the dark is the heifer. I'm going to pray for that 1 in 10. When the vet was here she said neighbors of ours, the Moore's, have had several that have bred. So I'll definitely get whatever blood test it is that determines it. I'm just curious... COULD SHE be used as a recip cow??? I would raise her strictly with that in mind if it was possible. I've read that its their ovaries that are underdeveloped... but does that mean the uterine environment (hormones) are off kilter too... so that she couldn't carry one either???

A freemartin can not carry a pregnancy. If she is a freemartin, she will likely be missing her uterus, ovaries and many do not have a cervix. We had one a few years ago (and were sad, out of our best cow), and we were told that her reproductive external genitalia will look different in a lot of cases. As she got older, we noticed she had a very tiny vulva, and her clitoris was pale and could be seen outside the vulva in most times. She never got fat and puffy back there, just stayed tiny. We had the vet check her at 6 months with a rectal, and she did not even have a cervix, just half of the vagina.
When I worked on a dairy in my younger years, the dairy man would take his pen in his pocket, lick it (lube?), and insert it into a twin heifer when she was born. He always said if his pen did not go all the way in, she was a freemartin. That is how he decided when to ship the day old heifer calf or not.
Leaving it on a good note, the neighbors down the road had one, and she has had several calves! So it is possible!
Has Granny stood yet? I hope all works out for the best for you.
Oh, and BTW, Cal Poly is my Alma Mater, a great university!

 

[Nesikep]

I had a twin heifer born to a steer.. Man did she look good (raised by a different mother), but I didn't want to take a chance on her.. she was really thick and meaty.. Her genitalia looked pretty ordinary, so maybe she was one of the 10%...

 

[dun]

A freemartin can not carry a pregnancy. If she is a freemartin, she will likely be missing her uterus, ovaries and many do not have a cervix. We had one a few years ago (and were sad, out of our best cow), and we were told that her reproductive external genitalia will look different in a lot of cases. As she got older, we noticed she had a very tiny vulva, and her clitoris was pale and could be seen outside the vulva in most times. She never got fat and puffy back there, just stayed tiny. We had the vet check her at 6 months with a rectal, and she did not even have a cervix, just half of the vagina.
When I worked on a dairy in my younger years, the dairy man would take his pen in his pocket, lick it (lube?), and insert it into a twin heifer when she was born. He always said if his pen did not go all the way in, she was a freemartin. That is how he decided when to ship the day old heifer calf or not.
Leaving it on a good note, the neighbors down the road had one, and she has had several calves! So it is possible!
Has Granny stood yet? I hope all works out for the best for you.
Oh, and BTW, Cal Poly is my Alma Mater, a great university!

Freemartins range from having a vestual penis hanging from the vagina to having all the plumbing but the ovaries not secreting enough hormones to carry a pregnancy. If looks normal and passes the testube test, have a blood test done on her. When we had one done it only cost 50 bucks through Univerity of california at Davis. Now I think some of the DNA exam companys also do it.

 

[Wisteria Farms]

Thanks all...yes...I've been reading volumes on this and you all are correct... disappointing but I think I'll take that pen and ACTUALLY LUBE IT...LOL.
As for Granny...no...not standing at all. Prognosis doesn't look good. She's not even shifting her weight back and forth from side to side like she was (in days past we would find her on her left side, and then her right, and then her left again). When she STOPPED doing that on Friday (along with the prolapse problems) we decided to induce. Not sure if I mentioned this but EVERY time I would push the prolapse in, she would urinate. From reading other posts on this issue I knew her bladder was probably being pinched in the prolapse. So...we just needed those calves OUT.

We're not going to lose hope on her but we're realistic...it doesn't look good. I'm wondering now if maybe one of the other herd tried to mount her at any time or if she got a good shove that could have dislocated/fractured her somewhere in the back end. Its sad regardless how you look at it.

 

[dun]

Thanks all...yes...I've been reading volumes on this and you all are correct... disappointing but I think I'll take that pen and ACTUALLY LUBE IT...LOL.
As for Granny...no...not standing at all. Prognosis doesn't look good. She's not even shifting her weight back and forth from side to side like she was (in days past we would find her on her left side, and then her right, and then her left again). When she STOPPED doing that on Friday (along with the prolapse problems) we decided to induce. Not sure if I mentioned this but EVERY time I would push the prolapse in, she would urinate. From reading other posts on this issue I knew her bladder was probably being pinched in the prolapse. So...we just needed those calves OUT.

We're not going to lose hope on her but we're realistic...it doesn't look good. I'm wondering now if maybe one of the other herd tried to mount her at any time or if she got a good shove that could have dislocated/fractured her somewhere in the back end. Its sad regardless how you look at it.

When dealing with vaginal prolapse my first course of action is always to lieft it in a way to allow the cow to pee. Doesn;t have anything to do with why they prolapse but blocking the urethra is almost gauranteed. Allowing the bladder to empty is just a pain/discomfort reducing step. Anything to make them less uncomfortable while fiddling with the prolapse to my mind is just the right thing to do.

 

[Wisteria Farms]

Dun,
I agree... I knew the bladder issue was a secondary thing to the prolapse but when I noticed her urinating EACH time I put it back in, I started to wonder if the two had anything to do with each other...I can't image the discomfort she would have felt if I hadn't helped her empty her bladder. However, the vet did put the prolapse back in and then sew her up. This isn't meant to be a forever thing but just so that we wouldn't have to continue to fight it while we TRIED to rehabilitate her. She IS able to urinate on her own since doing that. I'll be posting pictures of our "rigging" used to hoist her a bit later today. Like I said... we are not having any false hopes that she would ever BREED again, just trying to get her on her feet and not have to resort to a bullet and a hole (yet). Thanks so much...

 

[Wisteria Farms]

By the way.. got the calves weighed. Heifer is an even 40 lbs and bull is 49 lbs. Appetites are good... eating every 8-12 hours 1-1 1/2 qts each time. I'm amazed the heifer seems to do better at sucking/eating than the bull... I'm also amazed that at 89lbs of total calf weight...that's really not any larger than anything Granny calved before. Anyone know how much excess fluid there is with twins? Is the placenta much larger??

Just doesn't seem like at those weights it would pull her down like it did...(though she was really BIG).

 

[Nesikep]

They are little guys!... there must have been *something* else that got her.. but if I recall correctly, she didn't just lay down all of a sudden, she just started laying down more often and for longer periods until she just stopped getting up... I have no idea what that would be, since a fracture or something you'd think would have a quicker effect