BFE
Well-known member
I think he meant that this particular bulls epds correctly predicted the potential for calving trouble seeing as how an average calf had to be pulled even at an early delivery.
Inducing Cows to Calve Early
- Thread starter angus9259
- Start date
Help Support CattleToday:
simme
Old Dumb Guy
Maybe or probably. In order to affect the numbers, a person would need other calves sired by other bulls and report the numbers together. If several calves by bull A were induced early and several calves by bull B were not induced and birth weights were similar on both sets, then the epd calculations would show that the bulls have similar effects on the calves bw within a pasture group. So, inaccuracy and misleading there for sure. But what is the overall effect on bull A's bw epd from this? depends on the quantity of early induced calves from bull A compared to the number of full term calves reported from all herds in the registry. The BW epd for the Charlo bull for instance is based on the reported bw of 4930 calves, so a few induced calves would not have much effect. If the reputation of the bull is such that many or most calves are induced, then definitely presents an inaccurate epd.
For this bull, both the CE and BW epd's are very good. It is the CEM epd that suggests that keeping replacements might carry some risk. That CEM epd is based on 1255 daughters that had calving ease reported. For people that don't value epds, they might disregard both the bad epds and the good ones. But, if someone told me that had calved out 1255 daughters of this bull and pulled way more than average, I would tend to avoid him. Purebred or commercial.
EPD's on a low accuracy bull are like the 10 day weather forecast. EPD's on a high accuracy bull are more like the next day forecast. Trusting epd's without looking at accuracies is like cutting hay based only on the 10 day forecast. Might work and might not.
Silver
Well-known member
Thanks. The place where this would affect someone like me is that I look at birthweight as one of the factors in the bull buying decision making process. So obviously this could make for a very misleading scenario.
Ky hills
Well-known member
I actually like the analogy of comparing EPD's to cutting hay based on the extended forecast. It seems about the same to me. Although, I do put some credibility on BW and CED of higher accuracy bulls.
My question for EPD folks is this, is it common to have lower BW and high CED and then have low CEM? Why would that be? I have seen high BW low CED bulls that have low CEM and have always stayed away from those when selecting for replacement females.
Is there some unknown issue with the bull like small framed daughters or daughters that are not large enough in the birth canal or pelvic area?
I have always viewed the average Angus as being very reliable in calving. I realize that there are quite a few outliers in the breed now.
I agree with others, I believe I would look to different genetics rather than to induce labor. That does not seem to me like a practical practice. I would not want to propagate that trait further.
Do the cows calve ok in the years after their first calves?
The only other suggestion that I would have is to breed those heifers by that bull to an extreme calving ease bull that sires calves that come reliably early and small like the BPF Special Focus bull, or a longhorn bull.
My question for EPD folks is this, is it common to have lower BW and high CED and then have low CEM? Why would that be? I have seen high BW low CED bulls that have low CEM and have always stayed away from those when selecting for replacement females.
Is there some unknown issue with the bull like small framed daughters or daughters that are not large enough in the birth canal or pelvic area?
I have always viewed the average Angus as being very reliable in calving. I realize that there are quite a few outliers in the breed now.
I agree with others, I believe I would look to different genetics rather than to induce labor. That does not seem to me like a practical practice. I would not want to propagate that trait further.
Do the cows calve ok in the years after their first calves?
The only other suggestion that I would have is to breed those heifers by that bull to an extreme calving ease bull that sires calves that come reliably early and small like the BPF Special Focus bull, or a longhorn bull.
Inducing heifers to calve a week early at a known time would make life easier. The every 2 hr checks make it hard on a working man. If you had a few it wouldn't be a big deal but watching 25 or more for 30-60 days gets old fast. It's also nice if you are going to be gone for awhile and have one you are a little nervous about. I guess in a perfect world every heifer would have her calf without help but unfortunately......
notEXTRAspecial
Member
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2023
- Messages
- 6
- Reaction score
- 5
Why not sacrifice a bit of birth weight for a bull you don't need to worry about? With me working full time and not having time (nor wanting to check cows/heifer every 4-6 hours) it pays me to use a bull that produces smaller calves. I'm financially ahead and my overall enjoyment of life is higher. I don't believe weaning weights is where my profit is made anyway…
StrojanHerefords
Well-known member
Dystocia happens because the calf's hip bones are too big to fit through the cows pelvis. A small light birthweight bull will sire calves that calve easy because they fit through the pelvis of a normal sized cow. But a heifer out of a lightweight bull will tend to have a smaller pelvis herself, which will make it more difficult to have a calf.
Travlr
Well-known member
Travlr
Well-known member
If not there... then where?
And you can breed for cows that you don't have to worry about it if they pop out a 90 pound calf. Breed for stunted calves and you get incapable cows.
Ky hills
Well-known member
I agree with what you are saying.
We have used low birthweight Angus bulls pretty extensively and retained some daughters of several bulls and haven't had any out of the ordinary issues with calving when using Angus bulls, or a Hereford bull. The only real issues we have had was with one Hereford bull that was sold as a calving ease bull but found out the hard way he wasn't.
What I am seeing EPD wise between Charlo compared to several other well known calving ease bulls Mytty In Focus, SAV Final Answer, SAV Bismarck is that they have very high CED as well as CEM, while Charlo still has a CED above what is considered a heifer bull, but his CEM is extremely low. I think there is something more than lightweight going on here.
notEXTRAspecial
Member
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2023
- Messages
- 6
- Reaction score
- 5
The limiting factor on nearly all ranches is the land area available to them. More smaller cows on that land will ship more pounds of beef than the big cows will. Pounds of beef shipped is where my profits are made. Bragging rights don't put money in the bank.
Studies show the typical 1500 lb cow will wean about 37% of her body weight. A 1100 cow will wean about 50%. The smaller cow will eat less and produce more lbs of beef. Yes, many 1100 lb cows can push out a 90 lb calf. But now I'm back to watching her around the clock…
Rancher
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2011
- Messages
- 275
- Reaction score
- 366
where you located?
Travlr
Well-known member
That still translates to weaning weights is where profit is made…
If you feed in the evening the cow will go into labor the next day. And you can breed for capable cows, 1100 OR 1500 pounds.
wbvs58
Well-known member
I wouldn't recommend widespread use of it as there is a higher incidence of retained membranes however the practice can certainly be useful and has a place, as I said previously it is useful on a heifer that seems to be going over the calving date with no signs of immediate parturition if you are sure of the due date. What you do with the resulting calf or the heifer that produced the calf and the bull used is a decision that each operation must make based on their operation. It is not a sign of a failed system and that epds are corrupted, it is a single anomaly that we deal with and then move on, chit happens.
wbvs58
Well-known member
You've also have to take into consideration the marketability of those calves too. I know at the weaner sales my steers that have good frame to them and good growth potential get a pen up the front of the sale and those smaller less frame valves go in the pens right out the back and the prices cents/kilogram also reflect the quality.
Ebenezer
Well-known member
"Pounds of beef shipped is where my profits are made. Bragging rights don't put money in the bank."
Pounds of acceptable calves that can get to the top of the market is where profit is made. Not just pounds of short dinks which sell for less than slaughter cows. Go to a sales barn and look with your eyes open. Bragging about pounds of beef per acre, if you want to blow smoke to sell the dink story, doesn't put money in the bank. It flows the other way. Quality matters.
Not always. I have a friend that had to pull every calf from a 4-year-old cow, starting as a first calf heifer. It made my head hurt!!! I can see giving a heifer another chance, but after that, NO WAY. Some cows just have a smaller pelvic area and frame. And a lot of subsequent mistakes are made by using low CE bulls on aforementioned heifers/cows. BTW my friend finally sold that cow.
farmerjan
Well-known member
Our cows average 1050-1200 lbs... so about 11-1150 overall. We routinely have 80 lb calves from them and they do not get checked but once a day... the heifers we do use a CE bull on and I do not especially look at the whole line up of CEM and all that. I want to see what the bull calf weighed at birth, what rating they give him... and then the heifers should be able to spit out a 70 lb calf with no problem.
KNOCK ON WOOD.... we have pulled 3 calves in the last 8-10 years... one from a heifer that had a foot back and the calf was dead, one from a cow, back feet first and the calf was fine but I wanted it out of there as fast as possible... and one from a heifer that just didn't put any effort into it and she did not stay after that calf got weaned... We use calving ease bulls on the heifers and the 2 bulls we used for 8+ years, both threw calves in the 60 +/- lb range... the heifers spit them out... they got up and went to nursing and that was that. I don't keep many heifers out of first calf heifers... MOSTLY because I want to keep heifers out of cows with some longevity... but I will keep a first calf heifer's, heifer calf, if she is out of a good line of PROVEN long time, productive, sticking around cows....
Our cows wean an average of 5 wt steers and 425-450 wt heifers... on pasture, with some hay, and not much else. We use grain to teach them to come into the pens... as treats so to speak...maybe a 5 gal bucket once a week per 10-15 cows.... and the grandma cows and first calf heifers that happen to calve in the fall will get some silage to help them keep up their body weight and make milk..... but we try to not calve heifers in the fall....
We buy and sell some cows so have some calving not when we especially want them but when you can buy a few right, we do... and deal with the calving... We do not breed any of ours to calve in the winter... March is about the earliest I want to deal with babies in the crappy wet weather... try to calve in 2 groups, spring and fall, but the bought cows will shake that up a bit...
KNOCK ON WOOD.... we have pulled 3 calves in the last 8-10 years... one from a heifer that had a foot back and the calf was dead, one from a cow, back feet first and the calf was fine but I wanted it out of there as fast as possible... and one from a heifer that just didn't put any effort into it and she did not stay after that calf got weaned... We use calving ease bulls on the heifers and the 2 bulls we used for 8+ years, both threw calves in the 60 +/- lb range... the heifers spit them out... they got up and went to nursing and that was that. I don't keep many heifers out of first calf heifers... MOSTLY because I want to keep heifers out of cows with some longevity... but I will keep a first calf heifer's, heifer calf, if she is out of a good line of PROVEN long time, productive, sticking around cows....
Our cows wean an average of 5 wt steers and 425-450 wt heifers... on pasture, with some hay, and not much else. We use grain to teach them to come into the pens... as treats so to speak...maybe a 5 gal bucket once a week per 10-15 cows.... and the grandma cows and first calf heifers that happen to calve in the fall will get some silage to help them keep up their body weight and make milk..... but we try to not calve heifers in the fall....
We buy and sell some cows so have some calving not when we especially want them but when you can buy a few right, we do... and deal with the calving... We do not breed any of ours to calve in the winter... March is about the earliest I want to deal with babies in the crappy wet weather... try to calve in 2 groups, spring and fall, but the bought cows will shake that up a bit...
notEXTRAspecial
Member
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2023
- Messages
- 6
- Reaction score
- 5
I'm not trying to sell the dink story. I understand there comes a point where frame score negatively affects the price of calves sold. But I believe I don't need 6-7 (or bigger) frame cattle to realize good prices for my steer and heifer calves. I'm not in the least bit offended when I see huge, open cows at the sale barn or in my neighbors pastures for that matter. I just don't see how the financial numbers work out well. 50 to 100 years ago when cattle paid for ranches and when huge wealth was realized, smaller framed critters is where the money was.
