Natural Processes

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inyati13":22a2wtnx said:
Deepsouth":22a2wtnx said:
Ron, you say that if you believed what Christianity teaches you would be the greatest witness in the world. If you were you would be labeled a judgmental intolerant bigot. But let's say you were a Christian and I was an atheist what would you do to convince me that there is a God and the Bible is His word.

Deepsouth, I could take that on a different spin but not as you teed that up. I have a cousin (my dad's brother's son) who is of the Franciscan Order of the Catholic faith. He and I have frequent conversations. Yes, he knows I am a non-believer. He is currently assigned at a convent in Cincinnati. He is 14 years older than I and is basically in retirement. The Church will care for him till death and then handle his remains in the tradition of the Franciscan Order. He spent his entire life serving the Church. He studied scripture in some of the institutions available throughout the Catholic Kingdom. It is remarkable to speak with him. He frequently visits my farm in the company of my cousin Jimmie who I am extremely close to (they are brothers). Unlike the defensive responses that are typical of discussions involving non-trained theologians like most of us (I must say least I be accused of having divine powers myself, that there may be participants here who have formal religious training), my Franciscan cousin is very guarded in statements that are proven by fact versus those that he attributes to faith. I am cautious to repeat what I have gleamed from our conversations but one point I remember is this: attributing statements in the Bible to God as his word is extremely tricky. There are statements that you may attribute to the man Jesus but saying it is the word of God is subject to faith.

My response:

Ron, I have to be honest with you. I have no ideal what your talking about here or what it has to do with my question. Also when have I ever mentioned Jesus to you either on this board or by PM?









Therefore, I don't feel I should attempt even as an exercise to convince anyone that the Bible is the word of God. I would have a struggle even defining someone else's perception of what God is. As I have done, my best fake shot at that is to use a Wizard as a proxy.

My response:

I can understand that. I was not trying to trap you with the question. I just wanted you to try to understand my side of the coin. Dealing with an atheist is a lot different than dealing with someone who believes in a God but has never trusted Him. I thought you could give me some insight into how to talk to an atheist because obviously I have no ideal how to do it.

I completely agree with CF that arguing over the age of the earth is pointless. Even Christians disagree on that but knowing the age of the earth is not a requirement to get into heaven. i can say without a doubt that God did not give us the full details of the creation but He told us what we needed to know. Our real issue is not on the physical but the spiritual. You have a spiritual need and you know it. No atheist tribe or people have ever been discovered. Communist have tried to force atheism on people but it does not work. Why? Because people know there is a God even if they don't know that God. According to Gallop only 2% of the world's population claims to be atheist, that puts you in a pretty small minority Ron. As I told you before I don't believe in Atheist. You cannot convince me that they exist. We are not spirits but we are spiritual. You keep referring to God as a long bearded wizard. That's your first problem while we are spiritual God is a Spirit. We connect to Him by the spirit. However when we don't when we dishonor Him through disobedience our spiritual connection is broken. ( That probably just got the thread locked) Anyway because of this broken spiritual connection we have a void in us and only God can fill that void. People try to fill the void in many ways but they know something is missing. There are no atheist.
 
CF, I will have to disagree on morality coming from spirituality (I think thats what you're driving at).

Being kind to someone doesn't require religion, just as religion is not a prerequisite for love. I don't live my life by a moral law, I prefer to call it a moral code.
I try to live my life by 2 quotes, one from the bible, and one from Ghandi.
1) Do unto others as you'd have done unto you
2) Be the change you want to see

I like both quotes very much, but the second has a less evident connotation... it doesn't say TALK about the change, or convince someone else to change. Something I find "Christians" often very poor at, and I put it in quotes as a differentiation from what an ideal Christian strives for, and the people who seem to forget about their religion 6 1/2 days of the week.
 
I find this thread interesting. At this point there are 84 post. These post are written in the last few day and are not in agreement.

Then I was thinking of the Scriptures. The Protestant Bible has 66 books, approximately 40 authors, written over a period of approximately 1500 years. Written from the time of Moses, 1450 BC to about 100 AD in Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic. Authors were fishermen, kings, shepherds, philosophers, even farmers.

When and inductive Bible study is done (find the who, what, when, where and why) there is a constant writing through the whole thing. Each teaching support other teachings.

So how could these writers for different backgrounds, different times, different languages, different locations have such constancy in their thoughts?

And if this is all mans creation for whatever reason, how did it stay together and survive? The Bible has been translated into over 2000 languages....

So people who believe this are, what, simpletons?
 
Nesikep":7rpdyvqv said:
CF, I will have to disagree on morality coming from spirituality (I think thats what you're driving at).

Being kind to someone doesn't require religion, just as religion is not a prerequisite for love. I don't live my life by a moral law, I prefer to call it a moral code.
I try to live my life by 2 quotes, one from the bible, and one from Ghandi.
1) Do unto others as you'd have done unto you
2) Be the change you want to see

I like both quotes very much, but the second has a less evident connotation... it doesn't say TALK about the change, or convince someone else to change. Something I find "Christians" often very poor at, and I put it in quotes as a differentiation from what an ideal Christian strives for, and the people who seem to forget about their religion 6 1/2 days of the week.


Nesi, that wasn't quite what I was driving at. I probably didn't word it as accurate as intended.

I agree that there are some people that are just naturally very kind, no matter their take on the world. I agree that there are some people that make claims of religion that are more than a little rough around the edges- some are learning and some may have missed the mark completely. But, I also don't think a church was created for the perfect, but is a hospital for the broken. I think you'll find people of all walks and all kinds of wounds among others that may be more stable medics. Some that it wasn't until life fell apart all around them, and they didn't have anywhere left to turn, that they let themselves be picked up and carried. (To reach a point of self reflection, at times a major jolt is necessary- I might have required a couple jolts :oops: ) All should strive to look like the one they claim/desire to emulate, but that isn't instant and more of a journey (one I'm still working on, but I'm a better person today than I was 3 years previous). There is a vertical relationship (upward, with God) that needs tending, but some forget the horizontal relationship (with fellow man) responsibilities as well. One without the other in either direction, is not complete.

Originally, I was intending to speak about the logic in following out our world views to their rational end and whether the actions made sense in the end. Not meaning someone's capability of acting kind or them doing so. I agree that those situations are quite unhinged from each other.

Regarding your favorite quotes, living by example is a powerful message and sometimes a very difficult task.
 
As for me, I'm a dyslexic agnostic: I'm not really sure if there is a dog. :)
(My apologies to dyslexics, agnostics, dogs..etc etc).

"I believe in the Church of Baseball." Kevin Costner, Bull Durham.

Nah, that's not right either...
 
Here's a quote regarding one's beliefs, and it applies to other things as well.
To think is easy
To do is difficult
And to do as one thinks is most difficult.

I know it isn't easy, but in my eye, if you aren't up to line 3 of that quote, don't open your mouth too much!

Speaking of doing as one says.
David Suzuki is a prime example, a shining light, of not living according to HIS OWN preachings.. he's got 8 houses, and the one in Vancouver BC is worth well over 5 million (can't remember the exact amount).. Seriously, you really need 8 houses? I won't get into his favourite mode of travel either (Jet or helicopter).
 
All good things must come to an end and so it is with the Natural Processes thread.
I appreciate those who participated. This thread would not have been possible without all my fine Christian friends. :D
I appreciate the effort and thought that CF and DS put into their messages.
We all know that there is a policy against religious and political discussions. Thanks to the Moderator for his indulgence.

The following is a personal vision. I rejoice each day that I had the fortune to be here on this exquisite planet. I think every day about the life that has ascended over the nearly billion years since the first primordial life forms evolved. A miracle. I would rather be here in the flesh than in a mythical spiritual afterlife.

Out on the plains of Africa a band of Hominids move through the shadows of dusk.
The small group of men, women and children have hunted and gathered all day to feed their tired bodies and care for their offspring.
In the darkness, they find a shelter and one of the elder men who carries the live ember from the fire of the night before wrapped carefully to sustain it, starts a fire.
The light and warmth of the fire is a pleasure beyond imagination to this small group of upright primates.
The fire provides the first relief to those haunted by the dead member of the group who was bitten that day by a deadly serpent.
His body has been carried all day by two of the younger males.
After a small hand full of berries and roots, the spiritual leader of the group has the body moved to the fire.
Each member of the group has seen birth and death.
Birth comes in pain, death in sorrow.
Each member thinks of where the life of the one struck down has gone.
No other animal but the Hominid has ever had the anatomical development to contemplate his own existence.
The power to think about what they are and why they are here.
In the short period of geologic time that these men have been here, they have acquired a language to communicate.
The elder goes to the body and intones it to the stars and the deep empty space of the sky.
He conducts the first ceremonial burial.
He gathers a hand full of the good earth.
He casts it toward the stars and speaks the fallen hunters name, Inyati.
Inyati's spirit is released, it goes with the small cloud of dust into the sky
Inyati's spirit see's his dear Star again. His sweet Margo.
He sees the green pastures of the African plains.
 
Bigfoot":39mhpc15 said:
inyati13":39mhpc15 said:
Bigfoot":39mhpc15 said:
As we all step over the dead skunk, pretending he's not there--------I'll say it---------It's particularly offensive for you to take the Lords name in vain. The other rhetoric you post rolls off of me like water on a ducks back.


http://www.themusichutch.com/listen-son ... oad/52264/

I'll give you credit for this post, that was pretty funny.

Thank you. You're a good man and a good Christian. I understand you more than you think. All men deal with the same challenges. If I know myself, I know you. :D
 
D2Cat":hx4q78jc said:
I find this thread interesting. At this point there are 84 post. These post are written in the last few day and are not in agreement.

Then I was thinking of the Scriptures. The Protestant Bible has 66 books, approximately 40 authors, written over a period of approximately 1500 years. Written from the time of Moses, 1450 BC to about 100 AD in Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic. Authors were fishermen, kings, shepherds, philosophers, even farmers.

When and inductive Bible study is done (find the who, what, when, where and why) there is a constant writing through the whole thing. Each teaching support other teachings.

So how could these writers for different backgrounds, different times, different languages, different locations have such constancy in their thoughts?

And if this is all mans creation for whatever reason, how did it stay together and survive? The Bible has been translated into over 2000 languages....

So people who believe this are, what, simpletons?

Excellent point !! Don't worry you won't get a response.

Larry
 
D2Cat":6i3f2ijm said:
I find this thread interesting. At this point there are 84 post. These post are written in the last few day and are not in agreement.

Then I was thinking of the Scriptures. The Protestant Bible has 66 books, approximately 40 authors, written over a period of approximately 1500 years. Written from the time of Moses, 1450 BC to about 100 AD in Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic. Authors were fishermen, kings, shepherds, philosophers, even farmers.

When and inductive Bible study is done (find the who, what, when, where and why) there is a constant writing through the whole thing. Each teaching support other teachings.

So how could these writers for different backgrounds, different times, different languages, different locations have such constancy in their thoughts?

And if this is all mans creation for whatever reason, how did it stay together and survive? The Bible has been translated into over 2000 languages....

So people who believe this are, what, simpletons?

I have often pondered if cephalic index is decreasing in humans. The Greeks, Romans and civilizations of the middle east were amazing in their capacity to think and discover. I ponder if the welfare state that the world has become, is breeding out the superior minds. My point is no, the scribes who prepared the early parchments, were themselves diligent and clearly were guided in their effort by very brilliant men.
 
What is the answer to the world having people all over it when the folks writing the Bible thought they were the only ones on earth. Did God create these people and why. Yes I know nearly every one of these people all over the world worshiped some sort of Deity in some form. Was it a God or the peoples vision of God. Also if man was created in the image of God then why are there so many different types of people all over the world. Also watched a PBS show that was about some of the South American Indians that sacrificed children to the weather God so that the weather would change. They took the children and wrapped them tightly in some form of textile and crammed them in crevices to die. This was to the change the weather. If they sacrificed more children then the weather changed. This proved to them that they were right and had control to satisfy the weather God and not ever realizing it was a natural process as Ron wrote in his post. I have to take my hat off to the folks that question and try to learn why things are the way they are.
 
hurleyjd":1ephh9d6 said:
What is the answer to the world having people all over it when the folks writing the Bible thought they were the only ones on earth.

The folks writing the Bible were the Jews. Adam and Eve were the first Jews. The Bible is the history of the Jewish people. God's chosen people. Adam and Eve. Cain was thrown out and "went into the city and took a wife". She was a gentile. A non-jew. Those that were formed through evolution. Folks like me.
 
4So you will find favor and good repute In the sight of God and man. 5Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding. 6In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight.…
 
Sometimes we don't understand why someone does not accept the teachings of Christ. And man can not change the mind of another person with scripture, because they don't believe scripture has any relevance. Only the Spirit of God can do that. We're free to share, but not responsible for the results. 1 Corinthians, chapter 2 explains and frees us.

10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: 16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
 
Jogeephus":1rcingno said:
hurleyjd":1rcingno said:
What is the answer to the world having people all over it when the folks writing the Bible thought they were the only ones on earth.

The folks writing the Bible were the Jews. Adam and Eve were the first Jews. The Bible is the history of the Jewish people. God's chosen people. Adam and Eve. Cain was thrown out and "went into the city and took a wife". She was a gentile. A non-jew. Those that were formed through evolution. Folks like me.

Perfect answer
 

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