Natural Processes

[inyati13]

Would you consider actually living by the two commandments Jesus gave us to be a waste?

Ron i know by the things you say on here that you already do this. And i believe the things you say because you are honest. You already believe some parts of christianity. Have you considered how some layers of rocks that were supposed to be dropped over millions of years are shaped in the same ways? Almost like they were formed at the same time and shaped right then but not slowly with plate tetonics.

Craig, my undergraduate minor was geology. The study of the layers of rocks is the science of Stratigraphy. Rocks are formed from deposits in mainly marine environments. For example, sand is deposited in the near shore marine environment and the forces generated by weight compact the sand into sandstone units. Limestone is deposited as lime falls out of solution and accumulates on the ocean floor. As geologic time passes the deposits are lifted by subsurface movements and the rocks are exposed in terrestrial environments. Sometimes aggressive subsurface activities completely over-turn these stratigraphic units such that the youngest layers are actually on the bottom. This confounded geologist for many years until it was fully recognized that units can be over-turned.

All rocks take millions and millions of years to form. Depositional environments are complex. Near shore marine environments that are influenced by major river discharges have increased depositional rates but it is easy to understand that no rock layers can be formed in nothing less that geologic time units.

In regard to your specific question, stratigraphic units are being deposited all over the world as I write this. The deposits in the Atlantic Ocean are being deposited at the same time that it is occurring in the Pacific Ocean. Could you elaborate on your question? By the way, plate tectonics is not the primary factor in depositional events but does play a major role in the lifting of the deposits after they have been cemented or formed into layers of rock. One addition point, there are three major categories of rock: sedimentary, igneous, and metamorphic. In regard to igneous and metamorphic rock, heat becomes a major factor in the formation of lithologic units.

 

[inyati13]

Dont misunderstand my chiming in as an attack on him. I didnt attack him last time and i wont this time nor the next. Everyone on here has a diffrent belief. What Ron stated earlier is true in that he has a stronger in what he belives than most of the christians on here. If you dont believe me then just look at the responses to him. Mostly empty attacks on him and no rebuttle to his statements. If you want to truly test what you believe and what you know about your religion then go somewhere you dont normally go and you are in the minority and try to tell someone about your religion.

This is the most intriguing comment of all. When I first came to Cattle Today and acknowledged that I did not subscribe to Devine Creation, you sent me a brief private message. It only stated, "Ron, if you ever want to talk, contact me." I responded that I appreciated the nature of your message. But your message has stayed on my mind. You didn't attack me, you didn't preach to me, you only offered you counsel if I ever wanted it.

This is not about who is smarter or who can convince someone else to follow their doctrine. In my entire life, I doubt that I have ever influenced a single believer to abandon their faith.

IT IS ABOUT CONCENTRATION AND COMMUNICATION.

You cannot concentrate and respond with a good message if you are allowing yourself to be offended. Regardless of whether the discussion is about vaccinations, breeding or religious ideology, it is a horrible mistake to become emotionally distracted.

During my career I learned that the key to outstanding participation in a discussion is:

1. Do not lose sight of the subject
2. Concentrate
3. Use your cognitive skills
4. Abandon emotion

I have no metric to prove my intelligence. I suspect it is better than average. But I do know I have excellent cognitive skills. My career required good cognitive skills and that was my best friend and weapon.

I wonder the same thing you do Craig. I observe very few Christians who impress me with their devotion. If I truly believed in Devine Creation; that there is a place for a soul to retain some level of remembrance and feeling, I would be the greatest Christian this world has ever witnessed.

 

[Deepsouth]

Ron, you say that if you believed what Christianity teaches you would be the greatest witness in the world. If you were you would be labeled a judgmental intolerant bigot. But let's say you were a Christian and I was an atheist what would you do to convince me that there is a God and the Bible is His word.

 

[Bigfoot]

There is a process going on in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. The process is called sea floor spreading. Magma wells up from the core of the earth and the forces pushes new sea floor out along the mid Pacific rift. The new sea floor pushes plates of earth out laterally in a process called plate tectonics. One of those plates engages the west coast of the US. As the plate pushes downward on the California coast, it is causing a rift inland that endangers the State of California. This is a natural process of force beyond our imagination on a planetary scale. Gandalf is not the force behind this. It is a natural process.

The Appalachian Mountains are one of the oldest mountain ranges on earth. Estimated to be 480 million years old. Mountain ranges are built by a natural process called orogeny. Orogeny is the result of the engagement of tectonic plates much like sea floor spreading. When these plates engage, it results in a large structural deformation of the Earth's lithosphere (crust and uppermost mantle). Gandalf did not do it. It is a natural process.

The Appalachian mountains were once higher than the Rocky Mountains but 480 million years of a natural process called erosion has reduced them to a fraction of their previous grandeur. Gandalf didn't do it, it is the result of 480 million years of rain, wind, and mass wasting.

As bad, as I want to drop this, I can't seem to for some reason. Your whole entire first post, was strictly aimed at saying that God did not create the world. The problem I have with that is it falls in the category of disrespect. You take the disrespect even further referring to God as Gandalf (What ever that is). As a christian, number one I see that as disrespect towards God. I guess on a much lesser note, I see it as disrespect towards me. I'm the same person here, that I am out in the world. I give respect, and I get respect. You don't talk bad about my God, you don't talk bad about parents, and you don't talk bad about my children. Were family. That's just the way it is. I'm not sure what value you put on family, and really don't care, because its not pertinent to the topic. The topic for me is direspecting something that hold dear.

Further more, I didn't debate what will happen to you when you die. It doesn't need to be debated. You know how I feel, and I know how you feel. You started this topic to upset somebody, and it worked.

 

[Deepsouth]

M5 and Sky, I'm impressed! An attempt to start two completely unrelated arguments in the same thread. This should get intresting. :lol2:

 

[M5farm]

M5 and Sky, I'm impressed! An attempt to start two completely unrelated arguments in the same thread. This should get intresting. :lol2:

Well you sure wont be able to say when the Forum championship committee puts out their rankings I didn't give 100% and take it easy on my opponents.

 

[Hook]

I've got 2 atheist brothers am I gve up trying to convince them that He exists. What I tell them now is that when I die, if I'm wrong, no big deal. When they die, If they are wrong, they are in some deep shyt

 

[Deepsouth]

M5 and Sky, I'm impressed! An attempt to start two completely unrelated arguments in the same thread. This should get intresting. :lol2:

:lol2:
I'd have you in at a solid 3 but I'm not sure how Greybeard will rank you. He's not real strong on you Florida posters.


Well you sure wont be able to say when the Forum championship committee puts out their rankings I didn't give 100% and take it easy on my opponents.

 

[Nesikep]

*sigh*, OK, I'll throw my hat into this arena against my better judgement.

To start off, I'll say I'm unsure of the beginning of the universe. I will acknowledge that evolution does happen without a doubt, but yes, the creation of matter and the first flicker of life I can't quite see being by chance.

What I'm astounded by is the Christian folk being offended by someone belittling their belief in God, and who turn around and mock any other religion, be it Buddhism, Islam or Science, and feel obliged to go to these places to convince these other believers that they are wrong.

 

[inyati13]

There is a process going on in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. The process is called sea floor spreading. Magma wells up from the core of the earth and the forces pushes new sea floor out along the mid Pacific rift. The new sea floor pushes plates of earth out laterally in a process called plate tectonics. One of those plates engages the west coast of the US. As the plate pushes downward on the California coast, it is causing a rift inland that endangers the State of California. This is a natural process of force beyond our imagination on a planetary scale. Gandalf is not the force behind this. It is a natural process.

The Appalachian Mountains are one of the oldest mountain ranges on earth. Estimated to be 480 million years old. Mountain ranges are built by a natural process called orogeny. Orogeny is the result of the engagement of tectonic plates much like sea floor spreading. When these plates engage, it results in a large structural deformation of the Earth's lithosphere (crust and uppermost mantle). Gandalf did not do it. It is a natural process.

The Appalachian mountains were once higher than the Rocky Mountains but 480 million years of a natural process called erosion has reduced them to a fraction of their previous grandeur. Gandalf didn't do it, it is the result of 480 million years of rain, wind, and mass wasting.

As bad, as I want to drop this, I can't seem to for some reason. Your whole entire first post, was strictly aimed at saying that God did not create the world. The problem I have with that is it falls in the category of disrespect. You take the disrespect even further referring to God as Gandalf (What ever that is). As a christian, number one I see that as disrespect towards God. I guess on a much lesser note, I see it as disrespect towards me. I'm the same person here, that I am out in the world. I give respect, and I get respect. You don't talk bad about my God, you don't talk bad about parents, and you don't talk bad about my children. Were family. That's just the way it is. I'm not sure what value you put on family, and really don't care, because its not pertinent to the topic. The topic for me is direspecting something that hold dear.

Further more, I didn't debate what will happen to you when you die. It doesn't need to be debated. You know how I feel, and I know how you feel. You started this topic to upset somebody, and it worked.

Well, Bigfoot, maybe there is a God. You have employed your Divine powers to reach into my mind and then tell me what my intentions were. You should get a part-time job as a fortune teller.

On the topic of respect. I don't owe your God or anybody else's God one ounce of respect. Respect is a free choice. You cannot mandate respect and you cannot enforce it by threat of death. Many cultures have tried and it don't work. If you are so concerned about religious respect then preach to those who get on here weekly and disrespect the Islamic Doctrine. Personally, I don't give a dam. It does not offend me. I will be damed if I am going to chastise someone because they don't show respect for my Atheistic Doctrine. That you take it as disrespect of you is your problem. I didn't have anyone in my mind when I posted any of these messages.

I agree with you on debating my death. I thought that was odd that you even raised that in your earlier post. I assumed (I don't have your Divine powers so I can only assume) that you brought that up in the heat of your taking offense.

Get over this. Your mind is creating boogie men in every word.

 

[Hook]

Inyati, it almost sounds as if you're getting your back up. Isn't that against your mantra?

 

[inyati13]

Inyati, it almost sounds as if you're getting your back up. Isn't that against your mantra?

On my oath before God, I am cool as a cucumber. :cowboy:

 

[Hook]

I think you're pickled :grin

 

[inyati13]

Ron, you say that if you believed what Christianity teaches you would be the greatest witness in the world. If you were you would be labeled a judgmental intolerant bigot. But let's say you were a Christian and I was an atheist what would you do to convince me that there is a God and the Bible is His word.

Deepsouth, I could take that on a different spin but not as you teed that up. I have a cousin (my dad's brother's son) who is of the Franciscan Order of the Catholic faith. He and I have frequent conversations. Yes, he knows I am a non-believer. He is currently assigned at a convent in Cincinnati. He is 14 years older than I and is basically in retirement. The Church will care for him till death and then handle his remains in the tradition of the Franciscan Order. He spent his entire life serving the Church. He studied scripture in some of the institutions available throughout the Catholic Kingdom. It is remarkable to speak with him. He frequently visits my farm in the company of my cousin Jimmie who I am extremely close to (they are brothers). Unlike the defensive responses that are typical of discussions involving non-trained theologians like most of us (I must say least I be accused of having divine powers myself, that there may be participants here who have formal religious training), my Franciscan cousin is very guarded in statements that are proven by fact versus those that he attributes to faith. I am cautious to repeat what I have gleamed from our conversations but one point I remember is this: attributing statements in the Bible to God as his word is extremely tricky. There are statements that you may attribute to the man Jesus but saying it is the word of God is subject to faith.

Therefore, I don't feel I should attempt even as an exercise to convince anyone that the Bible is the word of God. I would have a struggle even defining someone else's perception of what God is. As I have done, my best fake shot at that is to use a Wizard as a proxy.

 

[Commercialfarmer]

Brother Ron, I was meaning something quite deeper. Wasn't digging for specifics into any of your relationships, but how you explain the feelings you have. In your world view (as I understand, the world is only physical, solids, gases, liquids- no souls or spiritual being), emotions are not logical, and at the very least, in your words, a waste. Why is it reasonable to hurt for someone else that hurts or feel joy for someone else that feels joy, when the cause of their pain or joy is not something that directly impacts you. Only that they feel the emotion, does it impact you. The original cause has no bearing on your life. This isn't rational. If you believed in a world view where relationships with fellow man was important because they are more than a similar structured animal and their lives held significant value, it would.....

IOW, FRUSTRATION.

I am frustrated that mankind continues to base daily life on mythology. That 90 % of the world follows Christianity or some other form of dogma strikes me as a waste of human potential and a misguided act of massive proportions. It is simply incredibile to me.

I can't wrap my mind around not believing inh eternity and believing that someone not achieving their potential is a waste? They seem counter intuitive to me. If you buy the world view tat all came from nothing (which is impossible) and is in decay (which is counter to the belief that life started as less than a single cell and evolved to the complexity of man- a being so complex we have mastered little of him) then at some point it will all end and become nothing again... correct? So when it ends, all is for naught. There is no record, no memory, there is nothing. So if all you built is erased and including all memory of it, what have you accomplished?

How is one society believing in God, different from one not? I see no difference in your world view- both will be nothing. Only if God exists, do I see that it matters. Only if your actions, decisions have eternal implications can there be waste of said opportunity. This is why I don't think you can be consistent in what your mind tells you to believe and what you are designed to feel/act/believe.

If all is chance, and there is no Author of the world, there is no morality. If there is no morality, then there is no right or wrong. If you say as an individual something is right, I can say it is wrong and be just as correct. Same for governing bodies. Changing the body changes morality. Do you believe this? You can't believe in any of the commandments, you can't pick the ones you like. They are either all right, or all wrong. You can't have a foot in God doesn't exist, and a foot in right/wrong.

In a view void of moral law, one cannot say that any heinous act is evil, because evil cannot exist. If evil exists, good exists and a moral law exists. If a moral law exists, an author of that law must exist. No act can be a waste of human life. There is no real value to life. A human does not matter more than a fish. How can this be? The mind argues against itself in such matters. A hunter can take the life of a deer, bird, rabbit, pig and not think twice of opportunity for food. A soldier can take the life a threatening opposition, one purposefully attempting to take the same soldier's life, and can be haunted for life for having to take that action. It is not murder, but the conscious places a value on the life of man. It is seen again and again. There is a common fiber among people from all countries, and different generations, how do you explain the value one places on the life of another?

In a world that will not exist, war, death, loss of human life (the ultimate lack of potential) cannot be a waste. Might is the only right. What feels good is the master of your being. If you believe Cosby drugged the girls and had his way, you can't label that is wrong. Illegal- under our structure of law- yes, wrong- no, a monster- no. If only what feels good is not the master of your being, I believe you are not being consistent in a belief in no everlasting. Feelings for anyone that is not directly harming or helping you is a waste. Feelings are likely a waste in general. Again, this is how I see big picture and following ideas to their logical conclusion. I'm interested in your take on this.

You provided the suggestion that man has created God to explain things unexplainable. I will take the same liberty to explain why man may reject the thought of God. To get very real, I believe it is easier to argue against the evidence of even your own conscience, than it is to measure one's self against perfection. That is a hard act to do and do honestly.

(I intended to add a couple things previously. 1. I don't know claim to know the age of the Earth, and knowing or not knowing it's age doesn't preclude one view being correct or incorrect. There is much here that could be discussed from theory of relativity to carbon dating and possible variations in concentrations of isotopes etc.. 2. A man was quoted the other day, "What I'm saying is, if God wanted to send us a message, and ancient writings were the only way he could think of doing it, he could have done a better job." The individual apparently didn't read the ancient writings, or he would have known that it claimed God was originally in communion with man, after man caused separation, He sent His only Son to re-establish the lost relationship. That doesn't bode well for the gents knowledgeable of the subject.)

PS I agree that some of the best preachers of Life, have originally been some of the most ardent deniers. But if you ever change your view, it won't be because of something a fellow man has done. ;-)

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

I can't believe this thread has lasted this long.

Personally I believe everyone deserves respect until they do something that causes a loss of said respect.

 

[highgrit]

This is over my head, but I do like reading everyone's responses. And it's been a great read with no problems so far.

 

[M5farm]

"Only the wisest and stupidest of men never change."

- Confucius

 

[Bigfoot]

As we all step over the dead skunk, pretending he's not there--------I'll say it---------It's particularly offensive for you to take the Lords name in vain. The other rhetoric you post rolls off of me like water on a ducks back.

 

[Dale L]

Inyati- Just wondering if you have ever read any of the writings of C.S. Lewis? He was an atheist who became a believer. I believe you might actually like his book Mere Christianity. It seems you are quite the thinker and from the writings of his I have read I would have to believe he was too. I am a Christian myself and I enjoyed the book. I do believe someone such as yourself may enjoy it also.

P.S. While I don't agree with many of the comments I have enjoyed reading this thread and I hope maybe something someone has said may persuade someone to take another look at their life. I for one have asked myself "Am I as devoted to The Lord as I should be?" I believe this thread has spurred me to grow stronger in my faith today than I was yesterday and that should be each believers goal.