MM's new project (updated with pics on 3rd page)

[milkmaid]

CKC -- I really don't know. I tend to think weight -- ie calf standing -- is the best thing to straighten those legs out, but there may be other things that could help.

Update today: calf is still alive. In other words I haven't called it quits yet. Went and talked to my vet tonight about her as I'd taken her off antibiotics and dexamethasone on Tuesday evening (5 days of treatment, every 12 hours), and as of today her leg was swollen, but it didn't appear to be the joint, rather just swelling from the knee up and later also from the knee down. Kind of like how a horse in a stall will sometimes get stocked up from standing. I gave her banamine and dex to try to take some of the swelling down, and it looked better this evening. She has slightly limited mobility from the swelling, but appears to bear weight normally. Might be a bit early to determine if there's a relapse, and as she can and does use the leg, at the moment my vet felt it's just inflammation.

My vet did say that sometimes DMSO causes inflammation, so we decided it'd be best to stop using that just incase that's what was causing the swelling.

So we're taking her off banamine, dex, and the DMSO mixture, and playing wait-n-see. Time will give the answer.

 

[milkmaid]

Update: Still looking good today. Friday night my 311 cow (nurse cow to this group of calves) pushed the gate down and so the calves were all out romping in the pasture at 1am (I discovered them when I went to check on my calvy heifer in the middle of the night, LOL). Might have actually been the best thing that could have happened for this calf, as she had to use her leg and the exercise increased circulation to the area. As of this morning, most of the swelling is gone (there's still some strange swelling higher up on the leg that I'll have my vet look at) and she has near-normal mobility and weight bearing.

I'm trying not to get my hopes up yet as its only been 4 1/2 days since she came off antibiotics, but I am optomistic that things may turn out okay. If she's still looking good on Monday I'll see about making an appt to get that joint injected with glucosamine so she doesn't develop arthritis.

 

[larryshoat]

MM, happy to here this calf is finally coming around, I know how hard you've worked on it . I tend to think you're right about the exercise. Seems like this time of year it's hard to keep cattle comfortable in a barn . Anyway, we'll all keep our fingers crossed that her progress continues .

Larry

 

[milkmaid]

Looks like I spoke too soon. She appears to have relapsed. She's using the leg but not putting weight on it this evening. Kinda a depressing turn of events.

Unless she starts walking normally again, I'll be waiting for the next day with a nice sunny afternoon, and I'll turn this unfortunate situation into an educational experience (autopsy). Y'all interested in pictures of what normal internal organs look like?

I've decided I really don't like joint ill.

 

[spinandslide]

Looks like I spoke too soon. She appears to have relapsed. She's using the leg but not putting weight on it this evening. Kinda a depressing turn of events.

Unless she starts walking normally again, I'll be waiting for the next day with a nice sunny afternoon, and I'll turn this unfortunate situation into an educational experience (autopsy). Y'all interested in pictures of what normal internal organs look like?

I've decided I really don't like joint ill.

what is the status on this one MM?

 

[milkmaid]

Tomorrow's the day as long as the weather holds.

 

[hillsdown]

Sorry to hear this MM, I thought she would pull through. :???:

 

[milkmaid]

I thought so too, HD... if I were to do it again I'd go 10-14 days on antibiotics rather than just 5... but who would have known? my vet tried to talk me into retreating her, but I'm looking at this logically, and even if I retreat her the chance of success is around 5-10%, and she may have such bad arthritis in the joint that I end up having to put her down afterwards anyway. My vet book says that even when surgery is done, the joint completely opened, irrigated and cleaned with saline, injected with antibiotics, etc... chance of full recovery is only 67%. For a calf that's already relapsed twice and had the infection for over 2 weeks... I have to operate on logic, not emotion, and take the advice I've offered other people.

My vet made a comment that I didn't think about 'til later... said he was keeping notes on what I was doing for this calf so he could tell other people what type of treatment was necessary in order to cure joint ill.

Wonder if that means even he hasn't found something that will successfully, consistently cure joint infections? :???:

 

[larryshoat]

I thought so too, HD... if I were to do it again I'd go 10-14 days on antibiotics rather than just 5... but who would have known? my vet tried to talk me into retreating her, but I'm looking at this logically, and even if I retreat her the chance of success is around 5-10%, and she may have such bad arthritis in the joint that I end up having to put her down afterwards anyway. My vet book says that even when surgery is done, the joint completely opened, irrigated and cleaned with saline, injected with antibiotics, etc... chance of full recovery is only 67%. For a calf that's already relapsed twice and had the infection for over 2 weeks... I have to operate on logic, not emotion, and take the advice I've offered other people. Tough call MM . Logic or no it's still hard, but you gave it a good run .
My vet made a comment that I didn't think about 'til later... said he was keeping notes on what I was doing for this calf so he could tell other people what type of treatment was necessary in order to cure joint ill.

Wonder if that means even he hasn't found something that will successfully, consistently cure joint infections? :???:

I would say that is exactly what he means . It tells me he has a great deal of respect for you and the work you do .

Larry

 

[milkmaid]

OK... so I did what I knew I needed to do, and put her down (and then I sat down and bawled :cry2: - I hate shooting calves)... and anyway, I have pictures.

Warning: pictures are graphic.

















If you're still interested, then here they are...

vertical cut through the swelling over the joint, note the extensive scar tissue; there was 1 1/2 to 2" from the bone to skin

scar tissue cut away and joint exposed, note the white blood cells/infection in the joint and through the tissue

Joint surfaces were smooth and I saw no evidence of arthritis at 3 weeks post infection (good to know for future reference) but I don't see any way I could have cured this short of an intensive surgery that removed all the scar tissue, flushed the joint and removed all inflammation. Not sure even that would have done it.

I'll be talking to my vet on Wednesday and showing him the pics, so I can post an update after that if he sees anything particularly noteworthy in the pictures.

 

[Keren]

Sorry MM :frowns:

At least it can be said we have all learnt something from this calf.

 

[spinandslide]

I am sorry MM...but something learned/experienced..

 

[milkmaid]

Thanks Karen and spinandslide.

So I went and took the pics to my vet clinic today since I had to talk to my vet about some other stuff, and he was really fascinated by them. Said it was not what he was expecting to see (hadn't been what I'd expected either -- we'd both thought there'd be pus and fluid throughout the swollen area, not scar tissue), and turns out he hadn't ever completely cut one open like that before since he assumed he knew what it would look like inside.

He said that what the pictures imply is that if one has a calf with joint ill, it's vital to use anti-inflammatories to keep the inflammation down, because once the calf gets to the point mine is in the pictures, there's really nothing that can be done. I asked about the possibility of surgery to remove the scar tissue, and he said the problem there is the amount of blood vessels and nerves... laser surgery would likely be neccessary, but the nerves would be removed with the scar tissue (not a good thing).

I told him if he runs across another animal with joint ill (and a recent infection), to send it my way and I'll try again. I think I'll double the dosage of antibiotics and anti-inflammatories and use DMSO/NFZ to combat the infection and keep inflammation to a minimum.

Oh, and I did ask if he's ever seen a calf cured before... no. Said he's never seen one cured and be sound afterwards.

Someday I'm going to find a way, might take years but I'll figure it out. My Mom mentioned it could make a good thesis paper in vet school. :lol2:

 

[hillsdown]

How much is too much or not enough ? A very fine line with the treatment of calves :roll: .Kinda of d@mned if you do d@mned if you don't..

Thanks for all your posts on this MM and the experience of letting us go through the treatment with you.
I must admit the pictures were not what I thought I would see either.

I look forward to your cure of joint ill, and hopefully until you do find one I will never again see it in a calf of mine.. ;-)

 

[Beefy]

hey milkmaid why dont you add some labels of what we are looking for or highlight the areas and post this on your health sticky too?

 

[KNERSIE]

Thanks for the pics, I don't want to sound like your father, but you should really wear surgical gloves the next time you do an autopsy. Had a friend almost lose an arm a few years ago after he got an infection through broken skin after he helped a cow in labour.

 

[milkmaid]

Good idea Beefy... I haven't been updating that post as much as I ought to. Perhaps I ought to make a separate thread for autopsy pics?

Harley... :lol2: Knew someone would call me on that one. You're right though. And I actually did wear gloves, but they got a hole about the time I finished going through the internal organs, and it seemed pointless to wear them after that. The knee was the last thing I looked at.

 

[spinandslide]

I hope you can someday find a cure for joint ill MM....
Thanks for letting us, as another poster said, experience this all with you. Off to take a peak at your photos.

 

[Beefy]

Thats a good idea Milkmaid, an autopsy thread with pictures of normal organs to compare with messed up ones. i rarely cut any deads open, though, so i probably wont be of much help on that one...
(mainly b/c i dont know what i'm looking at).

i meant to say the same thing about wearing gloves!

 

[fourstates]

Great pictures and info! However, I hope the SOB that sold you that calf made good...I don't think that much damage from nfection occured in the first week you owned that calf....someone treated that calf into remission when you bought it, and you got it before it relapsed.