Jeanne - Simme Valley":1w9fjnmg said:Small framed cattle were "backgrounded" to grow SIZE prior to putting them on grain. The new modern calves are weaned with adequate size (of normal breeds) so they don't need to be "backgrounded" and are put on grain for about the same length of time the backgrounded cattle used to be fed.KMacGinley":1w9fjnmg said:I believe that that is the idea behind lowlines, to run more cows per acre and produce calves that can be fattened on grass or very little grain. Up until ww2 this was how all cattle were raised. The small framed cattle were not fed on grain immediately after weaning for the most part, but on grass until the very end. Consumers rightly or wrongly think that this is healthier and will pay a premium for it.
Farmers failed to look at TIME as being an expense.
Backgrounding was very normal in the 60's, 70's, & I believe in
the 80's.
Jeanne - Simme Valley":3ng17xu6 said:My remark was concerning taking a normal size cow & breeding her to a miniature bull. It had nothing to do with "efficient cow size".BAGTIC":3ng17xu6 said:"Why would you take a normal size cow, and have her produce LESS POUNDS OF FINAL OFFSPRING than she is capable of??"
It isn't about 'LESS POUNDS OF FINAL OFFSPRING" per cow. It is about 'per acre' or 'per ton of hay/feed'.
If the cows are smaller and more efficient feed converters the lower weight per cow may be offset by the greater number of cows that can be raised on he same resources.
The bottom line is pounds of beef per acre, not pounds of beef per broodcow.
If you take a normal size cow & make her raise a less than normal size calf, you are wasting your resources. The cow is still going to eat "almost" the same whether she raises 600# or 400# of calf.
Now if you look at this project as changing your total herd over to smaller type cows, AND you can get much more money for the offspring - go for it.
There are nitch markets all over. If you want to devote the time & energy to chase a nitch, have at it. There is enough work involved in doing a good job marketing cattle in the main stream of things for me. Remember, you have to compensate your time & energy.
novatech":20q67blm said:I have seen no research data stateing that any mini or for that matter small or lowlines or belted galloway is any more feed efficient than any other animal. It has not been proven that larger cattle are less feed efficient than smaller cattle. If it were true we would all be raiseing cattle the size of tea cup yourkies. Just because some breeders state these things does not make it true. It is just one more marketing gimick, and people trying to rationalise what they want.
Goat prices are up and that' is why people are raiseing them, has nothing to do with feed efficienty
Jeanne - Simme Valley":1fm21glq said:If you want "efficiency", ideally, you want a moderate, big volume, cow bred to a growth bull.
novatech":10nf59a0 said:Jeanne - Simme Valley":10nf59a0 said:If you want "efficiency", ideally, you want a moderate, big volume, cow bred to a growth bull.
I agree.
You cannot get hybred vigor with mini's you can only get lowbred drepression.
I have herd this small cow, mini, eficiency arguemrnt over and over, but I have never seen the facts to back it up. Show me, I can change my opinion if you have the proof.
1 mini eats less but it takes 4 mini's to make a cow, 4 will eat as much or more than 1 cow.
Brandonm2":26sx4jga said:Actually Harlon Ritchie has a slide show that show that 1800s and early 1900s Angus and Herefords were not frame score 1 dinks. In the 20s, cattle breeders began chasing dramatically smaller cattle as a way too increase carcass quality, increase tallow (then a very valuable product), and decrease the time it took for grass fed steers too finish. The multiplication of the smallest Prince Domino type Herefords and Sunbeam type Angus were the result of this methodical quest for decreasing frame in the foremost cow families of both breeds. Lowlines are the result of a scientific continuation of that research. They are NOT the original Aberdeen Angus....although they may be more pure than most modern Angus.
These are 1870s Angus replacement heifers in Scotland. Clone those girls and I could probably pass them off as good EXT daughters today. They certainly are not Lowlines
http://www.msu.edu/~ritchieh/historical ... eifers.jpg
This is a 1902 Grand Champion Angus Steer in Chicago
http://www.msu.edu/~ritchieh/historical ... e_jute.jpg
This is a 1901 Angus cow
http://www.msu.edu/~ritchieh/historical ... wbrook.jpg
This is a 1905 Angus bull
http://www.msu.edu/~ritchieh/historical ... erling.jpg
Then type began too change..
This is a 1915 Champion bull
http://www.msu.edu/~ritchieh/historical/nebraska.jpg
A 1919 Champion
http://www.msu.edu/~ritchieh/historical/idolmare.jpg
Some people hung on to larger Angus for a while. This is a 1925 2500 lb Angus bull
http://www.msu.edu/~ritchieh/historical ... rshall.jpg
but the little guys won the day....a 1937 Champion...
http://www.msu.edu/~ritchieh/historical ... _anoka.jpg
1952 Champions (these would be small Lowlines)
http://www.msu.edu/~ritchieh/historical ... r_1952.jpg
1953 Grand Champion Bull (I don't know how he mounts a cow)
http://www.msu.edu/~ritchieh/historical ... enmere.jpg
People were fully aware of what they were doing. Here is a 1953 ad bragging about their "progress"
http://www.msu.edu/~ritchieh/historical ... d_1952.jpg
1955 Champion Bull
http://www.msu.edu/~ritchieh/historical/prince_peer.jpg
Then the pendulum started too change again and go the other way.....
Ankonian President 1965 (big for the day)
http://www.msu.edu/~ritchieh/historical ... sident.jpg
Great Northern Champion 1970
http://www.msu.edu/~ritchieh/historical ... rthern.jpg
Ankonian Dynamo Champion 1972
http://www.msu.edu/~ritchieh/historical ... dynamo.jpg
Then things got a little crazy....
Frame 10 Angus back in 1986
http://www.msu.edu/~ritchieh/historical ... yorker.jpg
Another Frame 10 in 1988
http://www.msu.edu/~ritchieh/historical ... edrive.jpg
Here is the link to all of Dr Ritchie's slides...
http://www.msu.edu/~ritchieh/historical/cattletype.html
DOC HARRIS":308niiu1 said:This entire thread makes for half-way interesting reading, but - - -Give Me A Break!
DOC HARRIS
Badlands":lh6y5je0 said:"Original Aberdeen Angus?"
Hmmmmm......
Let's see, they bought them and started building the herd way back in the last century.
Then in 1974 or thereabouts, decided to breed for high growth and low growth.
So, if Lowlines are "original Aberdeen Angus", what are the Highlines?
Are they not the original Aberdeen Angus? Same gene pool, just different selection pressure.
For what it is worth, when the Lowlines were sold in the early '90's, the Highlines were kept. Mostly because they were more indicative of the production environment of the time, but partly because they were more profitable and efficient under that same model.
Badlands
DOC HARRIS":23ojk0jy said:This entire thread makes for half-way interesting reading, but - - -Give Me A Break!
DOC HARRIS
Badlands":zlmvoewi said:"Original Aberdeen Angus?"
Hmmmmm......
Let's see, they bought them and started building the herd way back in the last century.
Then in 1974 or thereabouts, decided to breed for high growth and low growth.
So, if Lowlines are "original Aberdeen Angus", what are the Highlines?
Are they not the original Aberdeen Angus? Same gene pool, just different selection pressure.
For what it is worth, when the Lowlines were sold in the early '90's, the Highlines were kept. Mostly because they were more indicative of the production environment of the time, but partly because they were more profitable and efficient under that same model.
Badlands
guest25":67i239q3 said:Badlands":67i239q3 said:"Original Aberdeen Angus?"
Hmmmmm......
Let's see, they bought them and started building the herd way back in the last century.
Then in 1974 or thereabouts, decided to breed for high growth and low growth.
So, if Lowlines are "original Aberdeen Angus", what are the Highlines?
Are they not the original Aberdeen Angus? Same gene pool, just different selection pressure.
For what it is worth, when the Lowlines were sold in the early '90's, the Highlines were kept. Mostly because they were more indicative of the production environment of the time, but partly because they were more profitable and efficient under that same model.
Badlands
so you say there was never holstein introduced into the angus breed for milk, and chi for frame.
Next time you lose a tooth put it under your pillow and dont tell anyone. ;-)