Murray Grey x Lowlines

[KevinN]

I have a very small farm with 20 sheep and several Lowline cows. One will lead reluctantly and follow for treats. The others are impossible. Not mean, but not easily controlled. I did try to lead train as calf's but unsuccessfully!
I was considering a MG breeding cow and Lowline AI cross. I'm looking for small stature, excellent meat quality and handling ability.
What do you think?
BTW my name is Kevin. I have a small farm in central NJ and this is a labor of love for me.

 

[TwoByrdsMG]

Council Creek Cattle in Cornelius, OR is doing this with great success. I am sure that Denise could give you a few ideas to get started! Tim Haws is up your way with Murray Greys in Romulus, NY and could help get you set up with a few or you could just order some semen and give it a try on your current females.

Phil & Denise Duyck
[email protected]

 

[Redgully]

You know what would be even better, square meaters, not sure if you get those in your part of the world.

 

[KevinN]

Thanks for the replies. I guess I forgot to explain that I'm seriously thinking of giving up the Lowlines. I don't have enough cattle sense to manage them. They're too independent for me.

 

[greggy]

Whatever sheep you have, they are much harder than any breed of cattle I have seen.

I would say, learn how to handle the cattle, and remember they are slower to react and less flighty if used to smaller areas and people, they will still move, you just have to work out how....

Breed wont make much diff IMO....it is an interaction with you.....

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Breeds can have definite temperament problems - but, like greggy indicated - YOUR handling can have a bigger affect.
Murrey Greys are an excellent choice - but, I don't consider them a very small breed.
Remember, in all species - the smaller they are, the nastier they are. Dogs - chihuahua vs St Bernard, Horses - ponies vs draft

 

[KevinN]

Thanks for the replies. After reading my OP I realized that I forgot to add that I might want to get out of lowlines if there was a better alternative. That's why I was contemplating a cross. My cows are not mean...but I can't get close to them...they seem flighty. So AI and routine care is a problem for my small operation without chutes and such. They are easily moved around the farm..easy to move into the barnyard or another pasture with a bucket of corn....but forget a halter. I have a year old heifer that will take corn from a bucket in my hands..if I crouch down, but if I move a twitch...she takes off. Very demoralizing! I've spent tons of time and watched lots of youtube..just can't seem to make any progress. I'm very calm with them too.

I was thinking about a small framed Hereford or MG to add handling ability with Lowline AI because I have good quality semen and a great vet.. I only want to breed one or 2 animals per year. I'm open to anything...Kevin

 

[andybob]

Breeds can have definite temperament problems - but, like greggy indicated - YOUR handling can have a bigger affect.
Murrey Greys are an excellent choice - but, I don't consider them a very small breed.
Remember, in all species - the smaller they are, the nastier they are. Dogs - chihuahua vs St Bernard, Horses - ponies vs draft

There are exceptions - the Mashona are of similar size to the Dexter but are extremely docile, whereas some Dexters can be terrors.

 

[TwoByrdsMG]

Thanks for the replies. After reading my OP I realized that I forgot to add that I might want to get out of lowlines if there was a better alternative. That's why I was contemplating a cross. My cows are not mean...but I can't get close to them...they seem flighty. So AI and routine care is a problem for my small operation without chutes and such. They are easily moved around the farm..easy to move into the barnyard or another pasture with a bucket of corn....but forget a halter. I have a year old heifer that will take corn from a bucket in my hands..if I crouch down, but if I move a twitch...she takes off. Very demoralizing! I've spent tons of time and watched lots of youtube..just can't seem to make any progress. I'm very calm with them too.

I was thinking about a small framed Hereford or MG to add handling ability with Lowline AI because I have good quality semen and a great vet.. I only want to breed one or 2 animals per year. I'm open to anything...Kevin

We can go out in pasture and pet every single cow (or brush them). Many of them we can catch out of the pasture with a halter and a little grain (or alfalfa). We have mostly pure murray greys, one Hereford-murray, one Charolais-murray and a simmental-murray. Our smallest cow is around 1100 lbs and she produces smaller framed females and moderate bulls. If you already have the Lowline semen but need some more easily managed cows then you are headed in the right direction.

 

[Bestoutwest]

Define flighty? I've had several levels of it. I have one that I can pet in the field, but will not, and I mean WILL NOT! get on a trailer and is hard to get in a corral. I had in her in the sweep tub and thought about running her through to try it, but I needed the others to stay calm. She worked fine being separated out, so maybe she's getting better. That being said, the other two she was with are dog gentle to move and work, but will back up when you step to them in the field. They have a bubble. I'm good with that b/c I have a bubble, too. I'm not the type that likes to get rubbed up and down and have them steal treats out of my pockets.

I ask, b/c some would consider those cows flighty b/c they won't stand for you to pet. To me, flighty is first one through every gate, last in and watching the whole time to see if it's a trick, agitated when being worked, if you're feeding in the field will be the last one to eat-might hide behind others and peek under other animals.

 

[KevinN]

Yup. The last one. Last to feed. Always thins there is a trick!

 

[gcreekrch]

Take total weight of Lowlines and change to same weight of real Herefords. They can be moderate without being miniature and have value in the real world. Moreover, they will respond o gentle handling and you will be petting them in the field.
AI them to a moderate Charolais bull for the best meat producing cross in existence.

 

[KevinN]

Not sure I understand..you mean take a 7-800 pound Hereford and cross with a Charolais bull? Will the finish on grass with good marbling and tenderness? I'm grass only operation... I know, a yuppy farmer! What is a moderate bull? thanks, Kevin

 

[gcreekrch]

Nope. Take all of those Lowlines to the local packing house and get them made into burger. 3 800 lb Lowlines make 2 1200 lb Herefords. Breed them to a moderate size Charolais bull. (They are out there) Now you will have sides of beef that are worth a pretty penny when they are ready for slaughter.

And gentle cows to pet when you want to.

 

[lms0229]

The breed you have is not the problem and their demeanor could be the result of mishandling by previous owners or the lack of early age human interaction or you could simply have high strung animals in which case do not breed them because temperament can get passed on. Aberdeen (Lowlines) Angus are usually very mild mannered and laid back. I personally have not had a cow's size dictate their personality. For a small operation if you are just wanting to feed your family and not doing the sale barn thing then Aberdeen are great for that. If you want something good on grass besides Aberdeen than MGs, British White or any other shorter statutes British breed would be ideal for your part of the world. The British breeds are very adaptive to colder climates... not saying some of your Continental breeds aren't either just the vast majority will be larger framed and it sounds like you aren't wanting that. Shorthorns may be a good option too and you can find some shorter statutes ones, but Aberdeen are great you just got some off ones I think.

 

[greggy]

Mmm...you do not want them too friendly.

it is not breed, I have Jersey, Murray, Angus, Hereford and crosses.

I often wish they were a little more on edge.

When they really rely on you and become used too you, they can be hard to get to do as you would like.

It is a combo of you, them, desire too eat, and habit.

I can do pretty much what I want when they want what I have, you may think that is good, but it may mean you become the centre of a cattle scrum.

A friendly beast does not realise that it may be one tonne of crushing power, so.....do you teally want them that friendly ?

If yes....

I think you have to look at yourself, you need to be confident, calm but firm, really like them.....then, get them in an area, where you become the thing that brings them feed, do the same thing, same clothes etc, you basically become something they want.....

Beware though, they forever more will watch you, mine even know when I am going or coming in varioys vehicles, if they could bark, would be like a dog....

Personally, I think best if not scared by you, but also not willing to come within say 10 to 20 ft....and will move when you apply pressure at right spot...is no fun having beasts run at you or any tractor or atv...albeit later is less dangerous.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Quote: "AI and routine care is a problem for my small operation without chutes and such."
This is a problem in my opinion. It won't make any difference what breed or temperament of cattle you have. You need a work facility. It does not have to be fancy, but you need to be able to constrain them so that you can do what is necessary with them. They don't always stay healthy, and they do get injured - where you need to do things to them that might hurt them or just they don't want you to do anything. Sometimes, we need to pick up their feet & dig out a thorn or just clean out a cut or bruise. Cattle, no matter how small are waaayyyy too big to try to manhandle. You or a loved one can easily get hurt with cattle without proper facilities.
I have LOTS of cows that are halter broke, shown 1 or 2 years. No way in Hades would I try to give shots or care for a wound without facilities.

 

[WFfarm]

Quote: "AI and routine care is a problem for my small operation without chutes and such."
This is a problem in my opinion. It won't make any difference what breed or temperament of cattle you have. You need a work facility. It does not have to be fancy, but you need to be able to constrain them so that you can do what is necessary with them. They don't always stay healthy, and they do get injured - where you need to do things to them that might hurt them or just they don't want you to do anything. Sometimes, we need to pick up their feet & dig out a thorn or just clean out a cut or bruise. Cattle, no matter how small are waaayyyy too big to try to manhandle. You or a loved one can easily get hurt with cattle without proper facilities.
I have LOTS of cows that are halter broke, shown 1 or 2 years. No way in Hades would I try to give shots or care for a wound without facilities.

I second that! A good cattle chute is by far one of the most important pieces of equipment we ever bought in the last 20 years.

 

[darcelina4]

I dont have working facilities. The first year we started with bottle calves that we halter trained. Then bought an older not halter broke cow. I decided that I needed to either halter break every cow or buy a chute. I cant afford a chute so all cows get halter broke. They are all tame and gentle. I have some things working in favor towards that goal that might not apply to you, Kevin. I've raised horses, mostly thoroughbreds for 50 years so I can wrangle. My daughter is 17 and an amazing hand with all animals. She can lead anything whether they want to do it or not. We do have a method to halter train them. We do work at it. We do continual reinforcement. Cows are food motivated. The easiest to train cows are the most food motivated. We tie them up. Leave them struggle 30 minutes. Brush them and hand feed cattle cubes. lead them some treating them with more cubes. Repeat daily. They will lead well in a week. At least twice a week I walk into each pen/pasture. I walk by every cow at touch everyone if only for a minute. At least once a month I have pockets full of cubes so I can hand feed at least 1 to every cow. This seems to keep them tame. When we vaccinate or pregnancy test, we put a halter on them and tie them to a post. We do what needs done. Give them some cubes. Move onto the next one. This works for our farm. This would not be practical if I had 100 cows but for 22 it works fine. It takes a while to fill the water tubs so I use that time to observe the herd for health and reinforce the training. But I also do corrections if they do something bad. I had a cow walk be and kick me. I chased her across the pasture swatting her. The swat did not hurt her. But it let her know I was the boss cows and she was not going to be over me. I maintain my status as the boss cow no matter what. AND, this is very important, I choose animals that are not high-handed or aggressive animals. I do raise lots from bottle babies but when they are getting some age, I can tell their disposition. I can tell if they will fit my program. last may I got a brahman cross heifer I named Danger as she looked at me and saw danger. I bottle fed her a few weeks. I could touch her anywhere while she was nursing the bottle. The next minute she was climbing the wall to get away from me. At the same time, I got Disaster. She was named that as she had no suck reflex and we had to tube her twice a day for over a week to get milk inyl her before the light bulb came on and she would suck. Disaster would lick my face if I sat on a bucket in the pen. I still have Dizzy. Danger went to live elsewhere as soon as she was weaned. If you are going to be hands on then the animals have to be geared towards hands on and you need to have hands on skills. I have many breeds of cows. I like the docility of beef shorthorn, fleckvieh, red Angus, beefmaster, red poll, and jersey. The beefmasters are the only ones with brahman influence that are pretty docile. I've raised a few brangus that liked me only and I could see the signs that they might not remain gentle after calving so they left. I dont have big cattle but my cows are not miniatures either. If you plan to raise beef then get animals that will raise a big enough carcass to be worth harvesting. I would not breed charolais to anything until you are good at pulling calves. 1. Choose individuals within docile breeds. 2. Halter train right away using cattle cubes as treats. 3. Reinforce handling often. 4. Get calving ease genetics.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

darcelina has some really good points. I halter break in a similar fashion (without cubes - but use food as motivation to walk to a spot). And she is soooo right, you must be Alpha in the pecking order.
But, as much as she has been able to handle her cattle tied to a post, if they are hurt or need major intervention, "I" would not want to be standing next to an animal solely tied to a post. If your cattle are super halter broke like she describes, you can have a spot that you have a wall or solid gate that you use as one side of a "chute" and get another gate fastened securely up front and swing it around & you can tie the back of that gate securely to the back of the solid gate to form a chute. But, makes it difficult to handle their feet in that kind of "chute".
Good luck. If you have cattle, you should be responsible and have facilities to handle them. IMHO