Linebreeding Info

[cotton1]

Walnut Crest-Without looking up exacts, the bull calf was born in mid June, and I took him off within the last 2 weeks. I'm thinking he was around 180 days.I will admit that I have yet to turn in his growth data. I want to see the results of the 50k before I do so.( Thats another little hang up I have, no time to go there here)

Ebeneezer- I might be trying to figure out some on farm protocol for culling within a linebreeding program. My thoughts on this particular bull are he needs a chance. In the last couple of weeks he has been in a group where feed is available to him at least at a 2% body weight. The feed available is good-excellent quality bermuda hay, and feed that is rationed. The feed is 17% protein-3%fat-22% fiber as I recall. It is made up of wheat mids and corn gluten.

I have already noted a growth spurt, but have not measured his weight. In his case It seems that he has been thru a stage where his hind end is growing faster than his front, and has a lot of energy( lots of running, playing). The conditions of his life prior to being on feed were bad. His mama had to keep them both alive on nothing, and compete with cows that didnt have a calf at side.In the last few days his front has caught up..he is growing.

I am of the mind set right now that the EPDs are a bit of a tuff target. I am finding animals that are in the 50th percentile of the breed for all traits measured are superior to animals that are in the top 1% for all traits. Reason being is everything comes with a cost from my observations. I need to figure out the cut off line, or where 50% is when its in front of my face as compared to a graph on the interwebs. Then I am back to this...Is a 450lb, 6mo old bull calf a cull?

I often laugh at my neighbor. He tells me his calfs wean at 700-800lbs. They are in a pasture that borders my yard. I see them every day, and probably more than he does. He takes his calves off at about 10 mo of age. He says they are weanlings. They are commercial, so there is no 205 ratio etc. With the American herd racing towards higher growth, more is better year after year the average size of the American cow has to be getting large framed at best.(my opinion)

Whats an acceptable weaning weight vs. finished weight?

Cotton1

 

[Nesikep]

About the big weaning weight and small cow.. I have a shining example of that being a failure.. 2 heifers weaned at about 700 lbs have a mature weight of about 1200.. maybe even 1100.. both totally unproductive.. Are they both freaks? I don't know.. One is linebred, one isn't, both from excellent bloodlines.. they're just "mini" cows with a frame score of about 4-5.. I have no idea what happened with those two

I kept a heifer that was born in May (instead of March) because I knew her momma was a good cow that had some bad luck... She was as big as the others by about a year old, and beats up on her mates now

Without taking weaning age into account, quoting weaning weights is pretty pointless... My goal right now is to not have my highest weights get higher, but reduce the number of dinks and have a more uniform group.. I'm also looking to have a herd of mommas where every one of them is a cow I'd consider offspring from.. At the moment only about half the mommas are considered brood cows.

 

[Stocker Steve]

If the cow is flush quality it would be foolish to cull the bull calf if there are real reasons for less weight.

2X
Put him in a back grounding pen and see if you takes off.

 

[farmerjan]

I am not near as knowledgeable as many of the others here with the very involved questions about percentages and all that you are asking. But one thing I can see: you said this bull calf has all the right things behind him, and he is younger due to the cow being flushed previously, smaller due to her having some health issues and not having decent feed to make milk on, and on top of it he was having to take what was left after a 15 mo old heifer was getting what should have been his main source of food....How in the world can you compare him to others and then find him wanting???? Now he is going through a growth spurt and seems to be catching up....If he has everything that you basically like, and did decent considering his first 6 months, and is now doing better, what are you questioning???
I think you are trying to find a reason to not like him and yet you can't.

Technically your neighbor is right. They are weanlings until they hit a year then they are yearlings, regardless of whether they are taken off at 5 mos, 7 mos. or 10 months.

 

[cotton1]

Farmerjan-Sure any producer can take his cows off when he or she wants. There is a standard in registered cattle about weaning weights. The agreed number of days that a calf should be weaned is 205. In my breed, weights are allowed to be turned in no earlier than 140days for weaning, and no more than 270 days for weaning. Yearling weights can be turned in between 270 days of age and 430 days of age, but there must be at minimum 70 days between the two weights. Those numbers provided to the association by the producer are then made the same by ratio of 205 day standard for weaning weight.
For instance,if my straggler bull was around 450lbs at 180days he would likely get a 205 weaning weight of about 512 lbs. If my neighbor used the same standards as the bull producers he buys from(not me by the way,he likes hair color that is not white) he would brag about his 5 weight calfs he just sold. How? If he is selling 7.5 weights at 300 days old, they would ratio around 512lb 205 weights just like my straggler.

Now, for me economics are different than some. But I know that buyers dont go bid happy on sale day when the 205 on the bull in the sale ring is less than 6 weight. I may be better to cull the little guy now, than to spend time and resources to get him to "catch up" only to take a subpar sale price that does not offset the inputs used.

Anyway, that was not my point really so I will say that I gave a bad example. What I was asking is in a tight bred herd of moderate size should I expect the calfs to reach 50% of their finished weight in the first 200 days of their life without a cost somewhere? Also, what do others think would be a reasonable expectation within that context.

I might be able to sell some mid 5 weights with tight pedigrees if I can find buyers that understand prepotency. But I know a lot of commercial breeders who are pounded with "more-more-more" at every cattlemens meeting, in every sales catalog, and by their peers. So much so that they are willing to keep their calfs longer than they should just to have the "right weights" on their sale day.There ears are not filled with things like prepotency as much as outcross I dont think.

Walnut Crest-I am interested in your method of in herd comparison. The next time I get calfs in a contemporary I may give that a try for curiosity. I like to see how things like that compare to genetic testing and breed ratios in a contemporary group.

Cotton1

 

[WalnutCrest]

<snip>
Walnut Crest-I am interested in your method of in herd comparison. The next time I get calfs in a contemporary I may give that a try for curiosity. I like to see how things like that compare to genetic testing and breed ratios in a contemporary group.

Cotton1

Note that those measurements aren't all I used to make keep / cull decisions. At weaning, I also get hip height (in addition to weight) -- and using the standard sort of frame score charts / formulas -- I determine what % of the animals' projected mature weight it is today, and then rank them based on this ratio. I do it again at yearling (along with getting scrotals on the bulls) ... and again right before breeding if any final keep / cull decisions are needing to be made. Generally, bulls aren't cut until they're in for their yearling comparison group check.

If you ever want to discuss this, drop me a note w/ your number and I'll give you a call.

 

[Nesikep]

Don't know if it's feasible for you, but you could keep him for yourself.. you know it's not his genetics that are at fault.
Another note is that bulls keep growing for a lot longer.. may of them getting to 2000-2400 lbs, so expecting them to get much over 35% mature weight is stretching it.. perhaps if you go by mature cow weight it's more reasonable

 

[Ebenezer]

Anyway, that was not my point really so I will say that I gave a bad example. What I was asking is in a tight bred herd of moderate size should I expect the calfs to reach 50% of their finished weight in the first 200 days of their life without a cost somewhere? Also, what do others think would be a reasonable expectation within that context. Cotton1

SE USA, no creep, no summer annuals, decent pastures: 40 to 45%, or select for high milk EPDs and feed, or creep feed and know where that heads. You will occasionally have a first calf heifer that was lighter weight to make or break 50%

I might be able to sell some mid 5 weights with tight pedigrees if I can find buyers that understand prepotency. But I know a lot of commercial breeders who are pounded with "more-more-more" at every cattlemens meeting, in every sales catalog, and by their peers. So much so that they are willing to keep their calfs longer than they should just to have the "right weights" on their sale day.There ears are not filled with things like prepotency as much as outcross I dont think.

Mindset - competing with the big boy and terminal traits. Fine if you plan to lose at linebreeding. Want to win that game without linebreeding, hob-knob with the greats, breed for terminal traits and be one of many. The purpose of linebreeding has to focus on the betterment of the cow and the future results of prepotent bulls in commercial herds or you are wasting your time. You need a new and better slogan that, "As big as yours". Like a long-term linbreeder told me, "Commercial producers sell pounds. I sell breeding stock." You are not taking the broad and easy way to even consider linebreeding. You will not sell them by the same techniques and slogans or to the same people (at first) as average registered cattle.

 

[cotton1]

Nesi-I did think about using him a little bit next year. The deal though is I'm still using his dad, Injector. I also meant to tell you that the calf is an Injector son and out of my Vannar G123 cow. Earlier in this thread I posted pictures of both Injector and Vannar.For my preferred market my bulls need to be calved in Jan-March. I might just use him on some of his half sisters next go around, but likely he needs a new home before he is mature. Plans are to use Injector for a long time, if he will be able and have no mishaps etc.

I think you make a great point with the average size of bull calf's versus the heifer calf's. But shouldn't the bulls be kinda sorta following the cow herd size? You know what I'm saying here, if the cows are selected for 12-1400lbs instead of 17-1800lbs, shouldn't the bulls be going from 2000-2400 to say 17-1800lbs? For the record I have not weighed Injector since the spring, but guess him at 1900-2000lbs. I need to worm in the next little bit, so I will have the scales on then and will know more.

Walnut Crest- I am interested in your developed methods of culling/criteria. I also would like to understand frame scores to projected finished weights. I too measure hip height at weaning. In fact the bull calf we have used in this thread was 43inches at the highest point of his tail head.I will try to get in touch soon.

I will see if the better half can get a picture of the bull calf on here since we have talked about him some..

Cotton1

 

[cotton1]

Ebeneezer- I appreciate your insight quite a bit. I know you understand the questions I am asking now, I will assume due to your own experience. I do realize I am going to have to do things differently than I was taught as a kid. We were in the commercial cattle here for a long time before I was born. In fact, I remember my great grandaddy running cows on the same pastures Im grazing now. I remember when we started buying registered bulls and thought that was the way to go. When I switched over in to the registered sector I learned quite a bit about the cattle business. I learned about the talk that trys to sell the"best" which means the richest guys lots, the ghost bidder pumping sales prices for the ones that dont get no-sale status quietly during the sale and end up burger meat,and much more.

I do hope you and the other contributors to this thread will continue to be understanding. Some of my questions are kinda wierd, I know. For the record its a strange place I am in during this transition of my herd(as you probably already know). What I used as culling criteria during my youth with commercial cows are not the same as within my registered herd. Now I am forcing myself to learn a new to me set of rules. I really hope to learn all I can thru this forum and in conversation with others that I know who are setting great examples for me with their line bred herds.

When I was in school I would save up money by working off the farm somewhere doing various things like yard work for folks,bagging groceries, washing cars etc. I would buy myself some sleeve cows, or pairs etc. I didnt listen to the old guard too well as I already knew it all. Questions were not needed then, or so I thought. Now I have more grey hair than black, and I have learned a few things. Since i have been grown and the old guard gone, many times have I longed to ask them what to do.

So now I have to question everything, maybe more than I should. But it sure saves me some trouble at times. Changing my mindset, down to the language I need to use with my customers are going to be a big part of this for me. And by the way, I do want to try to make cattle that survive in my area with very little input requirements. Efficeincy is another part of this thing I want to tackle. I do understand the importance of selection and culling correctly in my base herd and beyond,just not 100% about how to "get it done".

In my studies with my cows and the linebreeding calculators I have only identified a couple of cows that will meet the criteria on paper to have offspring I might be willing to keep as the next generation. Lots to learn...

Right now I have a distraction to take care of. My dear bride bought me a new Glock for Jesus's birthday, and I gladly accepted. Got to burn some powder, then I can ponder my cows again.

Cotton1

 

[Nesikep]

I have found surprisingly little correlation between mature cow size and mature bull size.. It's very rare I've seen a truly mature bull under 2000 lbs.. The Gelbveih in my avatar picture was 2100 at 7 years old, most of his daughters are ~1300.. Then my Shorthorn, Angus and Saler bulls were all around 2400 lbs mature weight, but their daughters were all 16-1800 lb cows.. so a 500 lb difference in mature cow weight but only 300 lb in mature bull weight.. It's an odd correlation that is definitely counterintuitive.. it certainly isnt a 10% increase in cow size = 10% increase in bull size (at least by weight)

 

[WalnutCrest]

IMO, a reasonable guess is mature cow size (while in excellent condition) would be the average of (i) 60-75% of their sires' size (while in excellent condition) and (ii) their dams' weight while in excellent condition.

So, 1200 lb cow bred by a 2000lb bull will probably result in a mature cow who is between 1200 and 1350.

 

[cotton1]

OK, I get your point on the difference in bull size compared to cow size. Will that change once the herd is very tightly bred, well over the 12.5-15% IBC?

If not, should expected weaning weights on bull calf's be higher in proportion to heifer calf's? What I need to define for myself is an acceptable growth rate for culling. It would be nice if we could just let them all grow up first, but that is not going to make me money I'm sure.

With the information posted recently here in consideration , where do you expect your cattle to wean vs expected finished weight? I think earlier Ebby said 40-45%. If that's right,here is my calculations, they might be wrong(old math): 2000lb bull bred to 1300lb cows should yield a finished weight on a heifer calf of 1250-1400lbs x 40%=500 to 560,x 45%=560 to 630.
So then should bulls be considered to reach their sires weight of 2000? In that case bulls should wean at 800 to 900lbs.

To date I do have heifer weights (205) in the mid to upper 5 weights, and sometimes as high as 7 weights. I dont like the ones that make 7 weight normally, because they turn out to be big cows. I regularly see 205 weights on my bulls in the 6 weight range and sometimes 7 weights. I don't think I have ever produced a calf with a 800lb weaning weight, but I see them on calf's from time to time in sales catalogs. So I still don't know what to believe about the bull calf weaning weights.I don't want to make giant cattle, even bulls.

Over the last few years I think I have been giving the pass to heifers at 500, and bulls at 600. Had a sales manager tell me that any calf should weigh 100lbs for every month it is in age. I told him that if you show me an 11mo heifer that weighs 1100lbs I bet I can show you a fat heifer that looks like a bull and wont breed. My females are normally around 8 weight at 12-13 months old. In fact 13 mo, and 800lbs with a natural, regular cycle will qualify here to be bred. Age of breeding/first calving can play a part in finished cow weight too.

Cotton1

 

[Ebenezer]

should expected weaning weights on bull calf's be higher in proportion to heifer calf's?

Yes, and they always are. Hormones.

should bulls be considered to reach their sires weight

Yes. But in how many years? Yet with same feeding regime. Example: weaning data on bulls here in past years calculated to larger FS and more growth than measured at 12 months. Reason: EPDs are based on full expression of growth while real farm data on fescue based pastures created an environmental restriction.

In that case bulls should wean at ...

Do not compare to other breeds or lines. Each line has it's own growth curve, milk production, environment, ...

Sale managers are selling mainstream cattle and not linebred cattle. Nobody walks in a Whole Foods store and asks for the genetic, cheapest, run of the mill. While on this subject: there are 3 kinds of ads: market presence, sale emphasis and educational. Market presence: create a recognizable name by the repetition of merely being seen month after month and year after year: "Hey I've hear of them". Sales: Animals and stuff ready to go and here they are. Less used: educational - offer info to producers why you are doing what you are doing and what your animals do for you and what they can do for them. If you stay with linebred animals you will become more distant from the mainstream (and sale managers) and your ads will become more educational to reach others with what you know and how it can help them. Just stick with facts and truth and you will gain market share but the breeding grunt work (and time) has to precede the sales.

 

[farmerjan]

Cotton, I do understand about the "standardizing" of 205 days for weaning weights as we do look at those numbers when we attend bull sales, as well as the yearling weights. But we also look at the data for the animals' pedigrees and what those cattle in the background have done. And we have to like the looks of the animal even if he isn't the "biggest". It seems to me that if that bull calf is so right in so many ways, I would either keep him or find a farm/ranch that would be able to appreciate his background. Maybe some place where you can work out a deal to evaluate him after a crop of calves is on the ground. And yes, I can agree that the way your neighbor is calling them weanlings is different than yours, but as several of the others on here have said, you are trying to compare two different "sets" of data due to the purebred vs commercial mindset. Anyone that is smart will ask what age the calves were weaned at to get that weight. We have a neighbor that does the same, and he constantly talks about how much more money he gets for his "bigger" calves. Then I will show him a homemade chart of what the different weights will bring, by the pound for different weights, and then show what we made on smaller weights but being able to carry a few more cows so sold more calves and we nearly always come out ahead year after year. His cows are bigger and they eat alot more too than most of ours.
So I do get what you were saying, just that you seemed to be talking yourself out of an exceptional bull just because he doesn't meet the "figures"...

 

[Nesikep]

I think the reason for bulls higher mature weight is they just keep growing for longer in their life (OK they do grow a little faster at first too), but a 2 year old bull can still be putting on significant daily gain.. a 2 year old cow has a calf to raise and to breed back.. she's not going to be growing nearly as much.

 

[cotton1]

Farmerjan-That little bull calf's name is Vinny. Dont worry about Vinny too much, I'm probably not going to cut his head off.The thing I was wanting to get to there was that all boy calf's shouldn't be bulls. Even sometimes when the odds are he should be a bull. But the thing about inbreeding depression can play a part too. Since I am trying to find areas of reason for a new culling process, I have to consider that the calf's that grow out slower might sire calf's that grow out better because of prepotency. I had some great conversation today on the subject and maybe my "mindset" will change as mentioned here before. Im glad you are involved with this thread. If you dont know a lot of details about linebreeding,you are in good company. Hopefully we will all learn some things together,and maybe think outside the box more. Oh, if you like Charolais bulls I bet Vinny would like it in Virginia about fall of '17. He will likely make his way to a commercial herd somewhere around then.

So I know bulls will probably be bigger animals when mature than the cows in a line bred herd. Still not 100% of how to understand the linebreeding depression and its effects on things like growth, and maturation. Measuring my cattle against my cattle and nobody else's seem to be part of the future process here as the herd tightens up.

Cotton1

 

[JWBrahman]

Cotton I can show you a heifer who was 1100 @ 11 months who is about to calve at 23 months. Her half brother was 675 @ 6 months and he has been breeding Angus cows for the past month.

Don't be offended but you are probably still a few calf crops away from linebreeding. My advice would be to find similar type Charolais with different genetics to cross with your herd. Do not stray from type and you will be successful.

You should read this before inbreeding:
Control of Canine Genetic Diseases by George Padgett

 

[Faraway]

Don't be offended but you are probably still a few calf crops away from linebreeding.

I don't know how anybody could find that offensive... :roll:

I'm sure I shouldn't ask, but how many calf crops do you need before you linebreed? And why would that be?

I mean, really, it seems like it'll either work or it won't? And you can surely pound out or otherwise consume your mistakes.

 

[JWBrahman]

Don't be offended but you are probably still a few calf crops away from linebreeding.

I don't know how anybody could find that offensive... :roll:

I'm sure I shouldn't ask, but how many calf crops do you need before you linebreed? And why would that be?

I mean, really, it seems like it'll either work or it won't? And you can surely pound out or otherwise consume your mistakes.

JD Hudgins had several herds of 400 head that he used in his linebreeding program. Guys with a small operation who start inbreeding get into trouble they can't fix. Hence the reference to the Padgett book.