Calling on all Linebreeding gurus, specialists, or geniuses

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Allenw said:
Is this a long term plan or short term plan? Keeping and using your own bulls or heifers? With embryos and sexed semen on could make a number of daughters and grand daughters to work with.
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It's an experiment at this point on only two animals using AI
 
************* said:
True Grit Farms said:
Why make things so complicated, just flush the two cows.
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I don't own them, and cannot get embryos on them. But I can get the semen from their sons
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You'd be dang lucky to get anything that resembled the cows. I'm amazed at how much difference there is in DNA and the expected EPD'S of flush mates. Doing things like what your talking is next to impossible to get repeatable results. IMO
 
True Grit Farms said:
************* said:
True Grit Farms said:
Why make things so complicated, just flush the two cows.
Click to expand...

I don't own them, and cannot get embryos on them. But I can get the semen from their sons
Click to expand...

You'd be dang lucky to get anything that resembled the cows. I'm amazed at how much difference there is in DNA and the expected EPD'S of flush mates. Doing things like what your talking is next to impossible to get repeatable results. IMO
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Is it not worth trying? I figured if I had cow A as a granddam, and cow B as a granddam, then surely there would be some influence of those two cows in the progeny?

Or if cow A was both the granddam on both sides?

I'm not trying to replicate a cow as much as I'm trying to get more of her pedigree into the bloodline and her traits.
 
I would go for it. My preference would be to use direct daughters on the bottom of the pedigree and stack on them as to just having an indirect connection on the male side.
 
76 Bar said:
I'm not trying to replicate a cow as much as I'm trying to get more of her pedigree into the bloodline and her traits.
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You done lost me on that comment.
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It's really not that complicated what I am trying to do. I want a new female calf with two particular cows in her bloodline, and not as very distant relatives. I also want a female calf with a particular cow on both the dam and sire side.

How confusing is that?
 
Ebenezer said:
Nesikep said:
A thought that just popped into my mind, more as a question than a statement is perhaps if you start off with purebreds there's less leeway before you see ill effects of linebreeding/inbreeding than when you start off with a crossbred herd? It would make sense.
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I'd say the opposite. But you will or should have less variation in a purebred effort of linebreeding. The survival scheme of organisms is to retain variation in a population or at least the variation seems to perpetuate the efforts of man and nature. Maybe the ones of variance are the ones with the least real inbreeding. What you would end up doing in a crossbred start and a linebreeding program is the tendency to select for traits most common in one breed and skew the efforts in that you are somewhat selecting that breed back out of the mix.

"First understanding the terms."
I am not disagreeing with you but just like EPDs are the expected performance of the average calf from a sire or dam, the %IBC is also the average inbreeding of offspring. That is part of the variation and thus a need to sort even in a tightly bred situation. Some will be more like the sire, some more like the dam, some will represent the mitochondrial DNA and some will represent recessive genes. It's not bad, it's not good, it just is.

A simple example of the variation is the comparison of half sibs in any herd. People still sort off the bottom half, market the top end and see sale results vary based on individual performance and enhanced EPDs of each offering. Much less how they sire animals.
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The way I'm looking at it, purebred animals are going to have more homozygous traits than crossbred ones to begin with... Purebreds (especially fullbloods) would have more common ancestors for sure.
 
Branded you are not really linebreeding, you are just stacking a pedigree. Linebreeding has a long term plan. You are just doing a one time expermint. I bought a bull a while back just for the same reason you are thinking of doing. Where you are trying to put two cows in a pedigree I am going to double up on one cow.
 
Red Bull Breeder said:
Branded you are not really linebreeding, you are just stacking a pedigree. Linebreeding has a long term plan. You are just doing a one time expermint. I bought a bull a while back just for the same reason you are thinking of doing. Where you are trying to put two cows in a pedigree I am going to double up on one cow.
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How did it work out? Do you have a calf yet?
 
************* said:
Red Bull Breeder said:
Branded you are not really linebreeding, you are just stacking a pedigree. Linebreeding has a long term plan. You are just doing a one time expermint. I bought a bull a while back just for the same reason you are thinking of doing. Where you are trying to put two cows in a pedigree I am going to double up on one cow.
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How did it work out? Do you have a calf yet?
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Why don't you just try and buy a cow bred with the pedigree that you want?
 
Ronnie Shelby is a good friend of mine....he's just dispersed last year, but used OCC Unlimited (linked above...an inbred, OCC line bred) aggressively for the past few years. The bull was an impressive beast, at 11 years old, he strode around like he was in his prime. All his daughters had tremendous eye appeal and were some of his favorites. I picked up a few daughters and granddaughters that are gorgeous.

Linebreeding/Inbreeding works sometimes, but again, not for the commercial producer. Heterosis is too easy a free lunch.
 
I just fail to see this heterosis everyone always speaks so highly of.. Perhaps you'd see it from two animals of different breeds that have both been linebred? Stacking animals that work seems to be far more beneficial from what I can tell right now.
 
When the parent stock and prior breedings have already taken advantage of the heterosis, you shouldn't see as much of the effects...so yes, I agree that outcrossing after line breeding would yield a bigger heterosis punch. I also believe that you should see advantages in a true F1 cross (angus x simmental...or hereford x brahman) and the second cross after that cross. After that breeding, you lose a great percentage of your heterosis. The purebred breeder should certainly be stacking animals that work, and depending on the circumstances of herd size, genetic diversity, and goals, it seems like it would be a good idea for the commercial guy too.
 

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