Linebreeding Info

[cotton1]

Well Nesi, I have a differing opinion tonight it seems. I think that there are no real disasters in tight line breeding, just revelation. If I have selected truly great genes to compound, then the process of stacking them should not carry a burden.

The big disaster that most fear in tight breeding is that the cows wont produce positive results, which is a front for the cattleman who doesn't want to swallow his/her pride. Like others have stated, culling becomes increasingly difficult as I am starting to learn. Sometimes the pretty cow has to have her head cut off if she cant get pregnant like the rest, or raises a 500lb calf when her counterparts raise 600lb calfs, etc.

Do I think I have the best genes in my breed that I am going to compound? Have no idea, time will tell if I have selected well. Who knows or can know what is hidden in a genetic make up?

I don't think linebreeding is important much for the commercial herd, unless replacement heifers are involved. I think its a responsibility of the registered breeder to make his/her strain and make it as high of quality as they can, giving registered breeders and commercial breeders as much hybrid vigor as possible along with the type he/she has "set" in their herd.

Im trying to learn this as I go. When you start to ask around you find out just how few are learned in the world of linebreeding. The ones that are seem to be vauge with their answers as if they hold the "key of David". Many on CT have tried to help me, and I am grateful. The biggest part of the trip must be the journey, and that can not be granted or conveyed in its fullest extent. Im still ready to stay on the horse I just saddled.

I have many , many questions today. I bet I will still have many, many more in a decade or two. I will try to get my bride to put up some pictures of what I have and then give you some ideas of where I want to go. I have enough respect for the CT family to let you "pick me apart" so to speak.

Ol Cotton aint a bed of roses tonight. Apologies to the offended. My interest is in conversation that creates learning on the subject of linebreeding here. It is a frustrating subject that I can not put down until I have answered the questions that persist in my mind. To the masses"their just cows", it dont matter at burger king. BUT, I am trying to find a way to be profitable in agriculture without "making up for it with volume". I am fortunate that I have taken in with my own eyes at least one producer who has made a great example for me. His herd is smaller than it was. His genetics are concentrated as hell. His problems get their heads cut off, and he doesnt work in a hay field all summer or apologize for his cattle. I am learning all I can from that guy and looking for others of the sort to learn from.

Maybe tomorrow I will be in a better state of mind.Just know Im looking for answers beyond the eveyday opinion of somebody who talked about linebreeding once with his pals. I am looking for white beards that rode that trail when I was a pup, and are willing to divulge a treasured part of their lifes journey. Because to me, their not "just cows". Call me names if you want. I fall into a category that money dont come easy and I cant ignore the little things anymore.If you find me contrary, just know I learn more if I question everything. My natural response is to question the next step. No offense intended, only gratitude to those who contribute.

Cotton1

 

[cotton1]

As if I am not long winded enough..

I forgot to give my purposes to Ebby. Here is what I am longing for in my herd:

Easy keeping cattle. We have drought, and 3 digit heat here in the summer. The inputs are not always a plenty.

Reproductive reliability. If a cow cant make a baby, she cant have my limited inputs. Plus, I require her to give birth to said baby, and raise it too.

Docility-I dont have time for crazy cows that I cant walk around. Sometimes my kids help provide the limited inputs.

Repeatable standard- I dont have to have the best cows you ever laid eyes on. Just reliable cows that will give me a calf that I can pretty much know how it will look,and perform before its even born.

Structural soundness- I hate loving a cow untill she is 4 then watching her feet crack up and hauling her to the sale barn.I need to do that in 2017.

I will remember what I forgot later, going to bed now.

Cotton1

 

[City Guy]

WOW cotton1! I wanna be just like you. Only thing I'd add to your longings is efficiency. With those things everything else will come along.

Oh, want to ask. If inbreeding slump appears can it be toughed through? Will it disappear in furture generations? Bet no one has ever tried it.

 

[WalnutCrest]

I'm always looking to learn. Thanks for starting this thread.

 

[Nesikep]

Cotton, I'm not sure we disagree as much as you might think.. Our goals are certainly similar, and our climate doesn't differ too much either though I get colder winters no doubt.
In 2015, it was over 100F from may through september.. right now it's -10F.

I'm starting my linebreeding experiments with a line of cows that have been exceptional.. every one of them have had great feet, udders, and temperament.. Grandma of that line had 16 consistent calves.. Momma is expecting her 10th and she's not looking old yet.. Daughter is a smaller cow and has surpassed my expectations in production.. she's about 1300 lbs and keeps up with the 1800 lb monsters, just eats a lot less to do it.

When we first started, we had a pretty lousy bunch of cows.. horrid hooves, udders, and vaginal prolapses from h3ll... 25 years later I think I might have weeded them all out... I've come to the conclusion that it's easier to breed desirable traits into the herd than bad ones out of it.. with the bad ones you can always have recessives that still pop up generations later.. If you have a solid animal that produces well for years and years, you can always add milk EPD's with a better bull for the future, but until then you'll at least be getting calves and won't have to cull half your herd at 5 years old... Like you, that drives me bananas as well.

 

[Ebenezer]

The big disaster that most fear in tight breeding is that the cows wont produce positive results, which is a front for the cattleman who doesn't want to swallow his/her pride. Like others have stated, culling becomes increasingly difficult as I am starting to learn. Sometimes the pretty cow has to have her head cut off if she cant get pregnant like the rest, or raises a 500lb calf when her counterparts raise 600lb calfs, etc.

Not disagreeing but just mumbling. Lack of fertility culls itself. What we dislike is the time it takes to recognize the "lack of". Weaning weights: Are you sure that is a priority in a linebred herd/line with your stated goals? Ever see the picture of ears from hybrid seed corn parents? Not much to write home about. You and I and others are trying to create an inbred line of seedstock for commercial crosses or for stabilization of traits, especially focused on female function from what you listed as priorities. Weaning weight is not a function of fertility. Milk production is an expense over base need. And if the lower production is occurring in earlier generations, look at the definition of the Bulmer Effect. Early sag and then rebound: country boy interpretation.

So showring looks and feedlot performance might have to take a back seat until the animals are crossed out for superior F1s.

 

[Stocker Steve]

I've come to the conclusion that it's easier to breed desirable traits into the herd than bad ones out of it.. with the bad ones you can always have recessives that still pop up generations later..

We use the Beefmaster method and cull about 25% of our cows each year. So we are retaining a lot of heifers and quickly correcting our previous management mistakes. Interesting thing is that a growing percentage of retained females are from two cow families. What do you think about retaining a bull from one of these longevity lines?

 

[cotton1]

City Guy-I'm sure if a linbreeding slump occurred it can be toughed out. I'm almost positive that there are several Hereford, and Black Angus herds that have made it work for quite some time. Myself, I'm just about one year in on this thing hence the search for answers on the subject.

I can see some of the points you guys make. Maybe I will have to settle for lighter weaning weights, after all I don't want to make huge cattle. I did not mention that before, but id say frame 6 is ideal to me. So should a frame 5 or frame 6 cow produce calf's that wean as much as a frame 7 or 8?

Just to remind folks of my original post, I was looking for ways to use the info on a inbreed calculators results for my herd. I was hoping that the %blood values could be used to keep undesirables at a lower risk for "showing up" in the next generation. Its been stated here that maybe 4 generations really make a difference in the next calf, so maybe breeding in traits works better than breeding them out.

Like I said, I have plenty of questions. I'm not just seeking answers to these questions on the computer either, I am putting trial and error in play on my farm as well. I also know that I may be able to sell cows that had 500lb weaning weights, but I don't think I could get folks to bite on a bull with a light weaning weight. At the Ocala sale in October, the buyers didn't seem to know or care about the blood lines of my bulls. Just the actual birth weight, weaning weight, and conformation.Thus to me, 600lbs weaning weight is the invisible bar of acceptance I have noticed.

I asked my wife about posting the pictures, so maybe she will get time soon.OH yeah, I do think using a bull from your better cow lines is a good idea. I plan to replace my current bull with one from one of my donor cows of which there are 3. They are another part of my story, as I am also limiting the cow lines to an extent. Current bull is a youngin though, just bout 3 years old.I hope he is the last bull I purchase from other producers. We shall see.

Thanks for the discussion, I'm enjoying it.

Cotton1

 

[Nesikep]

Steve.. that's what I'm doing.. the bull I have is from the longest lasting line of cows.
When we started, we had about 15 cows (families).. within 7 years that was halfed.. down to about 8 or so... Now, 25 years later I'm down to 5, with one of them being terminal... If my own bull works out the cow families will start to merge, and at some point in the next 20 years, any individual may have blood (the better blood hopefully) from all of them.. That's the point I think I will start seeing the results in consistency, both in phenotype and genotype.

Cotton1, Here is the cow I mentioned earlier.. a smallish cow that keeps up with the big-uns, and has the basic necessities in order.. hooves, udder, temperament, production, and efficiency... If I can get a whole herd of those types I think I would do pretty well for myself. Her 3rd calf (Limo sired) weaned at 640 lbs @ 180 days with no special treatment.. hay/grass and milk. Her sire is the one in my avatar picture


I'm not looking at completely closing off the herd from outside genetics at this point.. for the next decade or two perhaps I'll keep another bull around.. I could see another Gelbvieh and Saler coming here.. I've found that to be a pretty good cross both for maternal/structural traits (Saler side), and the Gelbvieh moderates the frame size and puts meat around it all... Coloration is also well paired.

I really enjoy this discussion as well... Please don't take anything I say as the law, I'm just stating how I'm going about it!

 

[RanchMan90]

Using a homemade bull on heifers may be a good test to see what his calves look like without exposing it to the whole population at first. I may try line breeding sheep, the best looking outsiders always seem to get culled out for some reason or another. They're apples and oranges to cattle though.

 

[cotton1]

Nesi-if we could find some way to identify how to use the %blood in our calfs make up, we could maybe limit some risk and stack the traits within the stack if you will. You are a good example of something. The linebred calculators do not care if the animals are registered or not.

Registrations are something that I do. That is an added cost. The EPDs are dependent on everybody turning in accurate data. Where Im going might mean I wont register all my cattle in the future. A lot of that depends on market acceptance for my cows/bulls.

Papers do matter to a lot of bull buyers even for commercial use. So that may be one cost I just have to keep obsorbing, unless my customer base changes.

If you want more chances with that cow( is that the line Chroma is from?) you need to flush her to your bull. Set your herd up as recips, and implant the eggs. If I was as far down this trail as you are I would definately be looking for a bull out of that cow family.

Cotton1

 

[WalnutCrest]

C1 ... how do you know a FS 6 is ideal for you?

 

[cotton1]

Thats a good question. I really don't know that the frame 6 cattle are the very best for me in the long run, its just a guess.

I base that off of my preferred cattle thus far. Almost always they are frame 6. I really think a little smaller would be ok, but I raise Charolais and they tend to have some frame.

If I ever had a great big cow that kept easy I may think differently. My experience has been that the bigger the cow is the less she has to milk to keep easier. The smaller( frame 6) cows have done better for me in relation to body condition while in milk in tough times. Im not saying they look like a show cow in those times, just that they hold up better on the same or less input than a larger cow.

Frame 6 is about as small as you find Charolais. There are some frame 5 out there but they are rare, and I think thought of as too small.I have had frame 6 cows make as good a weaning weight on their calf as frame 7-7.5 cows here. Thats worth something to me. Im about to post some pictures..

Cotton1

 

[cotton1]

Here is my current bull, Injector...



His sire is LT Ledger 0332. Ledger is very popular today, and has been for some time. Ledgers sire is Bluegrass who was a little smaller than Ledger, and while he was alive was a standard heifer bull. Easy calving and moderate frames are pretty reliable with them.

Injectors dam is sired by a bull called Full Throttle. He is one of if not the very best bull sired by Duke 914. 914 is the big spread EPD bull in Charolais over the last 20 years and is considered the most maternal bull out there. Injectors dam is out of a herd that has been around since the 70s and has been considered their best cow today with multiple progeny bringing in the top of the sales. She is a true frame 6 cow that I was impressed with when I visited her in person.

Injector will be doing most of the breeding around here for a while, even on his daughters. I may put embryos in his daughters , but he will be doing the clean up work for sure.

Ive lost this post already, so the rest may come later. I do have more to share though.

Cotton1

 

[cotton1]

Here is D49, one of Injectors first daughters. She will be ready to breed in the spring. If her daddy breeds her, I wont be dissapointed. She had my eye right now, but has a lot to prove too.

 

[cotton1]

Besides using Injector heavily, I am interested in limiting my female side of my pedigrees at least in my retained cattle. I have to date 3 cows that I have flushed. I would like those three and one or two that I should have flushed but let go, be the majority of my cow lines. Here they are..



This is Duchess. She is a daughter of the very famous Duke 914, and her bottom side traces back to a very famous cow line in Vanessa D029. She is a tremendous donor cow that regularly gives in the high teens and low twentys of grade 1 embryos. If you like EPDs, she is your girl. She is a big spread EPD donor cow that I got lucky and bought as a split calf. Not only have I flushed her, but I have sold flushes in her as well. I also have sold a lot of embryos off of this cow. She will be influential in my herd no doubt. I recently sold a son off of her that I wish I would have bred cows with, he was pleasing to me for sure. If you followed my thread on my bulls last year, he was the bull that out gained the others with ratios ranging from 125 to as much as 200.

 

[cotton1]

This one is Vannar. She was a proven donor cow when I bought her. She is the right size and type I would like to make. She is not too big and is meaty enough, well made and fertile. She has done a great job flushing for me averaging around 20 grade ones per flush. Vannars pedigree is very much full of bulls and cows that have proven themselves over and over again. Her grandsire, Grid Maker, is recognized as one of a few bulls who can support EPDs in both birth to growth and carcass merit.

Vannar was selected for a flush with some very rare foundation semen from a bull named Avignion. She will be a influence in my future herd for sure. The Avignion eggs will only be implanted when conditions are favorable. She gave us a lot of eggs, but there just isnt any more ampules out there. Signings are few. A bull calf from this mating would likely replace Injector.

 

[cotton1]

Here is Mary



She is a very important part of my puzzle. Marys mom is a flush mate sister to a cow that produced several high end AI sires. Her dad is a son of Grid Maker just like Vannar.Something else important about Marys sire, Chico, is that he is a foundation bull for a herd of cows that I have laid eyes on in form of father/daughter, double bred, triple bred and beyond with success.

The breeder Mary comes from has bred very tightly for years and is helping me out with this stuff. His herd sire today is a half sib to Mary, and is breeding cows that are probably triple bred or more to Marys dad. He has proven that his strain is true and I have much confidence in a tight breeding situation with offspring of Mary. Another thing about the breeder Mary comes from, he used hay for about 3 weeks last year. His cows didnt require any more in their enviornment. They stayed productive, and held their condition. Things to admire and work towards..

Cotton1

 

[Nesikep]

You got a nice bunch there.. paint them red/gold and I'd take one any day!

My homeraised bull (Marko) is Chroma's full brother.. I had kept another full brother (Dinero) who I think was phenotypically superior and sold him, though he somehow damaged his important bits and never got used.. I have to get a good picture of Marko here... Though I can say that since the day he was born he just had a look about him I really liked... A sort of pride

And here's proof of docility
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiNPs0FSTdc

Brother Dinero.. You can see he packs a bit more muscle.. pictured at about 6 months or so?

Momma (Caddy) with her 2nd calf which was also a full brother to the two above, but was a steer (after seeing him I regretted that and left her next ones intact)

And you may have seen this one before too.. Hector.. Sold to a friend. He's from the same maternal line, just have to go back a ways.. Same Gelbvieh sire as Marko, Chroma and Dinero, Same grandsire (Shorthorn), and great grandma.. He lacks the Saler blood though. Full brother to Mega, who's another outstanding cow. I think my friend will be using him for the last time this coming year, then looking for another bull.. I may trade either my Limo or Marko back for him.. despite being a crossbred bull he's had remarkably uniform calves from a very varied herd (Herf, Longhorn, Jersey, Angus)

Doing ET, and even AI around here is a huge PITA.. there is just no one around here that does it, no dealers, or anything... While ET is definitely the fastest way to get somewhere, I think it has its drawbacks too... you can get ahead of yourself with untested genetics and multiply them much too fast.. by going at nature's own rate you're going to see trends and results of what you're doing before you go too far with anything.
I really would like to be able to collect semen from my own bulls, if it's just 100 straws of each to be able to go back to them in a few generations and re-up on those genetics if they worked well for me.
As it stands, I think it's already valuable to me if I have a friend who can use one of my bulls for some time, I get to see a little of how he does, and I have an option of getting him back.
Of course the right cows still need to make bulls and the right ones need to make heifers.. and sometimes they can sure take their time giving you what you want.. I have one cow who's done great raising steers.. not bull-quality stuff, but certainly nice.. she has yet to give me a heifer... and the big problem there is that nearly any decent cow can make a nice steer, but not all of them make nice heifers.. I've had several now that make the heaviest, meatiest steers you can ask for, yet every heifer attempt is unimpressive.. and so some promising cows have turned out to be terminal.

 

[JWBrahman]

Very good type of cow, Cotton.

The next step if you line breed is to take a group from calf to carcass; measuring ADG/Efficiency as well as knowing the yield and grade you are producing in the group.