Kicking myself…

[Travlr]

A live calf nursing on day one without me being involved is good no matter what they weigh. I'm not planning on checking cows and heifers more than once per day and small calves help me sleep easy. Makes no sense to me when people complain their calves aren't big enough.

Makes no sense to me that people are breeding cows that can't calve normal size calves easily. I've had far more calving difficulties with calves that present badly than because they are too large. But I've always bred my replacement heifers from bulls with good maternals rather than calving ease.
Calving ease is only for first calf heifers and cows that are too weak to be in my herd.

 

[MurraysMutts]

I prefer a nice medium sized calf out of cows. Medium to extra-medium...

Never know when a cow will have a problem even after spitting out baby elephants.

There's sure something to be said for cows that reliably spit those out. My lack of sleep, no matter how reliable the cow, does not admire it tho....



Heifers just need all the help they can get imo.

What I don't understand is all the folks that run heifer bulls over their entire herd when they only have a handful of heifers in the mix.

 

[TCRanch]

What I don't understand is all the folks that run heifer bulls over their entire herd when they only have a handful of heifers in the mix.

Because the bull is only part of the equation. And calving ease doesn't necessarily mean low birth weight. My heifers average 70+ lb calves and I only use a high CE bull. But I've also moved those bulls over with the cows, paired with a terminal bull, and there's honestly not much difference in birth weight. Or growth, for that matter. I rely on my cows to develop and raise strong, healthy calves - regardless of which bull bred them.

This is a first calf heifer raising a whopper of a heifer calf and she was bred by Johnson, who was CED +16. And I used him on my cows off/on for years. Now that's a milk face!

 

[Travlr]

Because the bull is only part of the equation. And calving ease doesn't necessarily mean low birth weight. My heifers average 70+ lb calves and I only use a high CE bull. But I've also moved those bulls over with the cows, paired with a terminal bull, and there's honestly not much difference in birth weight. Or growth, for that matter. I rely on my cows to develop and raise strong, healthy calves - regardless of which bull bred them.

This is a first calf heifer raising a whopper of a heifer calf and she was bred by Johnson, who was CED +16. And I used him on my cows off/on for years. Now that's a milk face!

That... is a beautiful picture and a really super calf. But the question of whether to use her as a replacement is in her hips, udder, etc. not in her birth weight... at least to me. Raising and selling replacement heifers I pick bulls that make capable cows.

That's a really nice calf. She would be one of those exceptions to my rules and put in my terminal herd until she proved herself.

 

[TCRanch]

@Travlr I agree about retaining heifers sired by super high CE bulls - as a general rule. But I have kept 4 sired by Johnson (+16) and pelvic measurements at 11 months (instead of 12) were: 182, 174, 149 and 156. My minimum goal is 150 and they should theoretically have a 75+/- lb calf unassisted at 24 months. Piper, in the above pic, was the 149 and her calf was a backward presentation, but she had it on her own (ran to the workshop to get the chains and not 5 minutes later, there was the calf!). Windy, at 182, spit out her first calf like a Pez dispenser. I rarely retain a heifer from a first calf heifer because I want a proven track record. Does she consistently raise nice calves and breed back/calve during the first few weeks of calving? But I am making an exception with Piper and keeping her calf (Pepper/milk face), based on her dams history/the lineage.

@chaded my point is: wait until not only those calves hit the ground, but how well they've grown/developed by weaning before you decide to get rid of the bull. You may be surprised! He is just a youngster and has a lot of growing to do. And again, IMO, the primary factor is the dam. Assuming she's in good condition with good nutrition & minerals.

 

[chaded]

@Travlr I agree about retaining heifers sired by super high CE bulls - as a general rule. But I have kept 4 sired by Johnson (+16) and pelvic measurements at 11 months (instead of 12) were: 182, 174, 149 and 156. My minimum goal is 150 and they should theoretically have a 75+/- lb calf unassisted at 24 months. Piper, in the above pic, was the 149 and her calf was a backward presentation, but she had it on her own (ran to the workshop to get the chains and not 5 minutes later, there was the calf!). Windy, at 182, spit out her first calf like a Pez dispenser. I rarely retain a heifer from a first calf heifer because I want a proven track record. Does she consistently raise nice calves and breed back/calve during the first few weeks of calving? But I am making an exception with Piper and keeping her calf (Pepper/milk face), based on her dams history/the lineage.

@chaded my point is: wait until not only those calves hit the ground, but how well they've grown/developed by weaning before you decide to get rid of the bull. You may be surprised! He is just a youngster and has a lot of growing to do. And again, IMO, the primary factor is the dam. Assuming she's in good condition with good nutrition & minerals.

I don't think I'm going to sell him right away now. You guys talked me down from the ledge.

I am going to keep this thread updated regarding the calves and the bull.

 

[Ebenezer]

I don't think I'm going to sell him right away now. You guys talked me down from the ledge.

I am going to keep this thread updated regarding the calves and the bull.

A smart decision.

 

[wbvs58]

I don't think I'm going to sell him right away now. You guys talked me down from the ledge.

I am going to keep this thread updated regarding the calves and the bull.

It will be interesting to hear of the results.

Ken

 

[Aero]

One other thing that is different for me is that almost all of the animals born here will be around for at least 2 years. If they dont make the seedstock cut, they will be grass finished for direct sales along with the commercial calves. If I was only selling weaned calves at 200 days or so, I might be a little more concerned about 10 lb at birth. But I doubt it - still not worth losing sleep over.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Makes no sense to me that people are breeding cows that can't calve normal size calves easily. I've had far more calving difficulties with calves that present badly than because they are too large. But I've always bred my replacement heifers from bulls with good maternals rather than calving ease.
Calving ease is only for first calf heifers and cows that are too weak to be in my herd.

We are on the same page on this subject. First, I know my program is totally different than most - being top end PB. EVERY calf if valuable. I would NEVER breed a heifer for a "throw away calf".
As @Travlr said - position of calf has caused far more dystocia than any big calf. My nephew had to pull a calf last month because of size. It was an embryo, weighed 122#. Now, most of my cows can spit out a 122# calf, but this one had elbows bent and just wouldn't straighten out. This was the FIRST calf he pulled in the 10 years he has been here, because of size. About 5 years ago, I purchased a calf puller. It was still strapped in the box unopened. Usually, we just chains and my nephew is plenty strong. Nope, got the puller out and figured out how to use it.
Point is, ALL my cattle have to be watched at calving. I can't afford to lose any, and you never know when you are going to have a tangled up set of twins or a breech birth.
Just different priorities. Right now, there are a ton of CE bulls to use in my breed that are also GROWTH bulls. This is what I try to use on heifers.

 

[Bestoutwest]

Numbers wise he looks really good. I'd keep him, and if you like the cows you have AI some. Keep some bulls out of those crosses for future use, but you've got a clean up bull. At this point he's "free" (since he's paid for), and you can get at least one more season out of him if you're going to keep the heifer calves.

In my opinion (which isn't worth much) he looks pretty ok. I've seen worse out there breeding cows. And depending on your end goal for the calves, if he's putting calves on the ground, is it really that bad?

 

[chaded]

Well here we are 8-9 months later and I thought I would update this thread regarding this bull. Turns out, my feelings haven't changed a bit other than I dislike (understatement of the year) him even more.

I'm not even sure he would make a good steer. He grew since last fall but not really great. He doesn't get feed here and grass is mediocre to good in places. He did breed like he should and calves are fine (moms probably carried them..).

If you saw my other thread not long ago you will remember that he started nursing my cows which really ticked me off. I decided to just ride it out until the end of July and sell him. I have been dealing with my twins in the NICU and haven't had time to mess with it but my kids are home now thankfully.

Here is an updated picture of him. Don't worry about hurting my feelings I know it's bad. In fact, I hope he gets ridiculed in the ring and gets sold as a slaughter bull. I was already done with him but nursing the cows really took up a notch for me. I'd put him on craigslist but I would be afraid he would end up on the craigslist thread on this forum. lol.

 

[Travlr]

Well here we are 8-9 months later and I thought I would update this thread regarding this bull. Turns out, my feelings haven't changed a bit other than I dislike (understatement of the year) him even more.

I'm not even sure he would make a good steer. He grew since last fall but not really great. He doesn't get feed here and grass is mediocre to good in places. He did breed like he should and calves are fine (moms probably carried them..).

If you saw my other thread not long ago you will remember that he started nursing my cows which really ticked me off. I decided to just ride it out until the end of July and sell him. I have been dealing with my twins in the NICU and haven't had time to mess with it but my kids are home now thankfully.

Here is an updated picture of him. Don't worry about hurting my feelings I know it's bad. In fact, I hope he gets ridiculed in the ring and gets sold as a slaughter bull. I was already done with him but nursing the cows really took up a notch for me. I'd put him on craigslist but I would be afraid he would end up on the craigslist thread on this forum. lol.

View attachment 32346

Yeah... he ugly.

 

[puzzled in oregon]

Did you have to assist any of the heifers when they calved?

 

[chaded]

Did you have to assist any of the heifers when they calved?

I did not.

 

[Bestoutwest]

I'd ship him faster than I can type that out. And cut his nuts off so you get more.

 

[TCRanch]

Well, he's nothing to look at (where's his azz?). But he did get the job done. Nursing on another cow is a HARD PASS. At his age, I wouldn't steer him. He's going to slaughter anyway unless you want to go to the hassle & expense of having him trich tested.

So glad the twins are home! And other than a lack of sleep, hope everyone is doing well.

 

[kenny thomas]

Well here we are 8-9 months later and I thought I would update this thread regarding this bull. Turns out, my feelings haven't changed a bit other than I dislike (understatement of the year) him even more.

I'm not even sure he would make a good steer. He grew since last fall but not really great. He doesn't get feed here and grass is mediocre to good in places. He did breed like he should and calves are fine (moms probably carried them..).

If you saw my other thread not long ago you will remember that he started nursing my cows which really ticked me off. I decided to just ride it out until the end of July and sell him. I have been dealing with my twins in the NICU and haven't had time to mess with it but my kids are home now thankfully.

Here is an updated picture of him. Don't worry about hurting my feelings I know it's bad. In fact, I hope he gets ridiculed in the ring and gets sold as a slaughter bull. I was already done with him but nursing the cows really took up a notch for me. I'd put him on craigslist but I would be afraid he would end up on the craigslist thread on this forum. lol.

View attachment 32346

One way of being pretty sure is to say your selling him because he is sucking the cows.

 

[chaded]

Well, he's nothing to look at (where's his azz?). But he did get the job done. Nursing on another cow is a HARD PASS. At his age, I wouldn't steer him. He's going to slaughter anyway unless you want to go to the hassle & expense of having him trich tested.

So glad the twins are home! And other than a lack of sleep, hope everyone is doing well.

Exactly. (Definitely no butt). My main goal was to use a calving ease bull for these heifers and have no issues and that was accomplished. But, I bought him when he was 13 months old and 'thought' maybe he would grow into something halfway decent, hence one of the reasons I started this thread last fall to see what others thought. I won't do that again so lesson learned. I will hopefully pick a better bull next time and not 'hope' he turns into something. Lol

I could of killed him when I caught him nursing..

 

[kenny thomas]

I see people use much worse than him. The problem for me was him sucking the cows. I would have shipped him the first week for that reason.