Keep training or sell?

[HOSS]

I have a 3 year old Walkaloosa filly that I have had at the trainer for a couple of months. She is a big (16 hands), flashy girl with a HUGE motor. The trainer was trying to wear her down in the round pen to take the edge off of her. The round pen has about 8" of sand in it. Well 7 hours and 3 people later she finally tired up enough to stop. The trainer said that in her 20 years of training horses she has never had a horse that had this kind of motor. She hardly sweats or breathes hard after what would kill most trail horses around here. On top of the motor she has almost perfect confirmation and according to the trainer she is "scarey athletic and extremely well coordinated". Her problem is she thinks. You can see the wheels turning in her head. She doesn't respond to pressure like a horse that instinctively moves away from it. She thinks about what she wants to do and does it. Sometimes she is cooperative and other times she just locks up and refuses to do anything. She is so strong that even I at 215 lbs can hardly turn her. I am at that point of deciding if it is worth continuing or just selling her. I think she would make a great endurance mount. She was born outside and roamed over a 75 acre parcel with pasture, woods, creeks etc.. Nothing like that spooks her. She was raised with cattle, dogs, deer, tractors, 4 wheelers and the like so she is not spooky and can negotiate fallen logs, water and rocks like a goat. If I invested the time into more training is there a particular type of horsey people that I should market her towards? She tends to take up with one person at a time and she prefers women. She is not mean and doesn't bite or kick and she has no vices like cribbing or pacing. She is just headstrong and has the physical body to back up her stubborness.

 

[MistyMorning]

Hmmmmm, hope the trainers and more knowledgeable horse folks weigh in on this for you, but my question is at a 3yo do you still have her in a snaffle or have you tried some other bits with her yet? She does sound like a neat horse and my first thought was endurance riding too!

 

[3waycross]

Doesn't sound like you really have a use for her. Why not try to place where she will be used to her full potential......A real good payday would be nice also.

 

[Jim62]

She seems to have a lot of potential, but the not responding to pressure, doing what SHE wants to do, etc. is a bad thing. Maybe it's just me, but if I sent her to a trainer, that behaviour is what I would expect to change, and it wouldn't involve running around a round pen for 7 hours.

If I was going to keep her, I do believe I'd try a different trainer.

 

[chippie]

60 days of training is just a drop in the bucket. If she were mine, and I really liked the horse, I would give her another 60 days and evaluate her progress then.

I don't know your trainer's qualifications or experience, but I have to agree with finding a different trainer. A good trainer won't have to "wear her out" running around in a round pen to teach her. Horses can be run to death.


ETA: the type of bit shouldn't have anything to do with it, unless she has a tooth problem.

 

[hayray]

I have to suggest get a different trainer. Running a horse around in 7" of sand, lucky if you don't end up with some soft tissue damage after keeping that up. Runinng the horse around just tries to tire the horse out which I agree is useful, but some of the first ground work should be attatching a lead or lunge line to the animal and start training halt, stand, immobility, rein pressure, go forward from voice, whip and then start lunging. Free lunging in a round pen does not train anything. Go to some one a lot better.

 

[spinandslide]

Free lunging DOES accomplish alot, provided you arent in there just to wear the snot outta a horse..its about establishing respect and control on the ground..

Why did the trainer keep lunging her? what what she wanting the horse to do? :?:

 

[milkmaid]

Free lunging DOES accomplish alot, provided you arent in there just to wear the snot outta a horse..its about establishing respect and control on the ground..

Ditto. Just watch John Lyons.

For a young horse or one without manners I'd much rather round pen them for a bit than put them on a lounge line. You'd be surprised what you can get done in a half hour. If the horse doesn't have an attitude she should be done with round pen work in no time at all. The point of the roundpen is training - not wearing the horse out. I have to get in the saddle next week and trail cows 24 miles; I can't wear my horse out at the start of the day so he'll behave - I need a horse with heart under me all day. If you don't want it in a trained horse later, why condition a young horse to need to be worn down before he'll work?

 

[hayray]

No, the free lunging in the round pen is in part about wearing the horse down useing the physical barrier to help you train. You cannot train the horse effectively if you are not transfering your aids from the ground to the saddle, free lunging does this less effectively if at all then active aids. The big issue is that you don't take the boundry of the rail to the saddle with you, it does not transfer as a training aid unless you are only riding in the round pen. Both items are important in training - 1st exercise, calastetics to get the edge off, this can be done with free lunging but is very inefficient as compared to putting a rein (line) on the horse 2nd - training, i.e., transferring the aids (vocabulary) used in "avoidance conditioning" such as the line to the rein, the whip and voice to the leg. The round pen is useful for roughstock, that is traditionally what bronc busters on cattle outfits used to saddle break a horse in a day for the cowboys.

 

[ibo]

First off like other said; running her in a round pen for 7 hours is CRAZY! Fire the trainer! Lucky she is not lame. The biggest risk is blowing a hors's cannons. In 20 years of round penning I've never worked a horse in a rouind pen over 45 minutes. I find they learn best in 20-30 minute sessions. Even then they ar enot running the entire time. also good to tie then up after a training session so they have time to let it sink in...if you just turn thme out they seem to forget stuff more quickly...the quiet time helps.

If you don't really have a need for her or the time to work w/ a headstrong horse I'd sell her. She sounds like a great endurance prospect.

 

[cowpunk'd]

Find a better trainer. At this point you will probably need to undo the damage that has been done in the last 60 days. It sounds like your trainer is afraid of this mare. The mare needs a trainer that has very good timing and can reward any positive try immediately. The problem with alot of smart horses is lack of work ethic, which by the sounds of it is not your mares problem.
By the way horses need to be taught to deal with pressure by stepping away from it, for example if you press against a colts hip he will push back, and if you tie a colt he will pull.

 

[spinandslide]

while one would HOPE to ride out of the roundpen evetually...establishing respect and control on the ground is PARAMOUNT..we do this with ALL young horses before we back them..Ive never had one "freak out" under me, because of all the groundwork and respect we establish via the roundpen...

I dont even need a whip..I can control my horse's gaits and directional changes purely with my body..

to an extent, if you have a horse who needs to have some steam worked off..thats fine..they will let you know when they are ready to work..they will start licking their lips, lower their head and cock their ear towards you..then you know they are ready to work.

 

[hayray]

By the way horses need to be taught to deal with pressure by stepping away from it, for example if you press against a colts hip he will push back, and if you tie a colt he will pull.

The response to pressure and avoidance to pressure applied by the riders aids are the primary principle that horses are trained by but is one of the most mis-understood concepts in horse psychology. Horses by instinct lean into or pull against pressure - (i.e. fly shaker response). Through proper timing by applying aids and releasing pressure a horse will move away from pressure. On an untrained horse if you get on and push with your spur the horse will resist and lean into the spur. Likewise, on the same horse if you pull on the reins the horse will toss the head or pull against the reins. Race horses are trained using the natural instinct to lean into the bit and run, no time is spent getting them to give to the bridle.
]

 

[msscamp]

She seems to have a lot of potential, but the not responding to pressure, doing what SHE wants to do, etc. is a bad thing.

Not necessarily. As my father put it, some horses are a different kind of a horse, and they will not be bullied, forced, pushed, or made to do anything. If the owner, trainer, or anyone else who is handling this type of horse takes the time to understand her, she can almost always be talked into or out of anything. It is a classic case of being smarter than the horse.

 

[Suzie Q]

I agree that 7 hours in a round pen was detrimental. Both mentally and physically.

Any technique that uses tiring out a horse is not really training. I am not talking about warming up a horse by lunging.

I hope she recovers quickly.

 

[cypressfarms]

She sounds like a lot of Arabians I've handled: VERY athletic, great balance, headstrong, but not a "bad" horse. As much as I don't like to criticize a trainer, IMO, you need a trainer smarter than the horse. Sometimes you have to evaluate/change your techniques when required (I'm talking about the trainer). This girl is obviuosly not like most other horses, so why treat her that way? I've ran horses in the round pen to wear them out, but never even close to that time. No more than 30 minutes or so, and then when I do it, I'm constantly changing the horses direction and moving them to let them know who's in control. I'm no professional trainer, but what this trainer's done seems more like punishment for a horse that doesn't really deserve (or probably understand) it.

I'd keep her. Horses like this tend to be very loyal; you might have the next horse to last you 10 or more years in front of you.

 

[HOSS]

She sounds like a lot of Arabians I've handled: VERY athletic, great balance, headstrong, but not a "bad" horse. As much as I don't like to criticize a trainer, IMO, you need a trainer smarter than the horse. Sometimes you have to evaluate/change your techniques when required (I'm talking about the trainer). This girl is obviuosly not like most other horses, so why treat her that way? I've ran horses in the round pen to wear them out, but never even close to that time. No more than 30 minutes or so, and then when I do it, I'm constantly changing the horses direction and moving them to let them know who's in control. I'm no professional trainer, but what this trainer's done seems more like punishment for a horse that doesn't really deserve (or probably understand) it.

I'd keep her. Horses like this tend to be very loyal; you might have the next horse to last you 10 or more years in front of you.

Wow! I had forgot about this post and just checked back and am surprised by the amount of responses. Well I guess I had better update the situation.

Shortly after my original post I pulled her from the trainer. She just didn't have the experience / knowledge to deal with ahorse like this one. The trainer turned her out into the outdoor arena and she cleared the 4ft fence around it like it wasn't even there. It took no effort at all. Reminded me of a huge deer. I have never seen a horse of her size that is that athletic. Anyway I contacted a trainer about an hour an a half away. He specializes in problem / hard to train horses. He is a national clinician and has a TV show. He come out and spent 3 hours with her as an evaluation. He said exactly what cypress expressed. He gets into a horses head and sets his training regimine for that particular horse. His thought were that a horse that can move like her does not need to be worked but approached from the reverse point of view. She already knows how to move so working her only enforces that moving is what she is expected to do. To make a long story short in 3 hours he had her to the point where he mounted her from either side without a brible. Just a halter. I never though I would see that. He said a horse like her (mentally) is only seen in 1 out of several hundred. Something about her neuroceptors(sp?) and right / left brain and that they cannot be trained like other horses. He was VERY, VERY impressed with her size, athleticism, explosiveness and strength. I would say more like blown away. He was impressed enough to want her as a tour horse starting in March. I am working on a deal with him now involving a trade on a very broke and well trained horse for my wife in exchange. My filly is TOO much horse for either of us to handle and will always be to hot for our taste. Our preference is slow and leisurely rides. Besides, she will mature at 17 hands which is taller than we want to deal with especially on trail rides.

In some defense of the original trainer I was not that clear in my post. She didn't drive the horse for 7 hours. Once she got started the horse took off on her own and she let her go. The filly loves to run. I have seen her run around a 40 acre pasture for 2 hours straight just enjoying the the thrill of running. It was probably a bad idea on the trainers part in not stopping her. The good thing is she was not injured nor showed any signs of stress. She was back to her normal running and bucking when turned out the next day in the arena.

It seems that all is ending well and I appreciate the feedback and advice everyone has tossed out. I know this filly will make the right person a great mount. She is smart and will probably be a one person horse when that person becomes her leader and gains her trust.

 

[chippie]

Thank you for the update. It sounds like a win-win situation.

You'll need to let us know if your filly is on tv so that we can watch. It is pretty exciting that the trainer is so taken with her.

 

[cypressfarms]

I am working on a deal with him now involving a trade on a very broke and well trained horse for my wife in exchange.

O.k. Hoss, It's killing me! What kind of horse did you get for trading your wife in?

 

[Isomade]

I am working on a deal with him now involving a trade on a very broke and well trained horse for my wife in exchange.

O.k. Hoss, It's killing me! What kind of horse did you get for trading your wife in?

:lol: :lol: