Imagine towing a gooseneck with this!

[greybeard]

If semi trucks had a small 1-200hp diesel generator that was running at peak efficiency, coupled with the regenerative braking of the electric you could get good range and it probably could drive anything but the worst mountain passes.

Maybe, if geared. I've worked with diesel electric in several different sectors and 200hp is still only 200hp. Putting 200hp to the 8 truck driving wheels is one thing but getting that 200hp divided out to all 18 (16?) for braking is a little different animal.
My gut feeling is you might need a small auxilliary generator to handle the braking and leave the propulsion system separate.

 

[Travlr]

Impressive numbers? We've been generating similar numbers with petro for a long time. No question that "instant torque" of electric motors is "cool"............ but put those numbers into real world practice, and they fall flat, unless you have a way to continue to deliver the stored energy that you're consuming. That battery, when you CONSUME the energy by heavy demand like that... will NOT deliver that suggested 300+ mile range... you'll be lucky to get 25% of that...

What do you do with a truck typically? You haul loads. How many of the loads that you haul with a gooseneck trailer on your 2500/3500 truck are @14,000# including the trailer? This thing is still in "toy stage"... not even close to in the ballpark for serious truck users/owners.

And here's the biggest kicker of all. What about the cost to consumers to deliver the power required for charging? Right now we're delivering all of our transportation energy requirement via high energy density petro pipelines and tankers. Our electric delivery infrastructure can't even handle our current "normal" electricity demand... NOT INCLUDING all the transportation energy that we're delivering in petro form. So, who's going to be paying for THOSE upgrades... will that come via a "tax" specifically on the users of electricity for transportation? You can be sure it won't... it's going to be coming in the form of a "tax" on every KW that you use for your lights, and your computer, and your TV, and.....

You think that the cost of electricity to run your lights and AC is high now? Just wait till they start plugging more of these things in! Buckle up, because we'll all be paying .50 - .75/KW in a few years, mark my words.

The conversation will be, "We simply CAN'T suggest that the real cost of "going electric" has to be paid for by the electric vehicle users... or no-one would ever begin to consider purchasing one... and we WANT them to convert to electric... to "save the planet"." And once enough of a market share has moved from petro to electric, we will HAVE TO invest in the infrastructure upgrades to keep the economy moving... we won't have any choice at that point.

Let's get real and be honest about this...

Yeah...I can agree with every one of your concerns. Especially your last sentence. A single sided perspective isn't honest.

We are in a transition much like we saw going from horses to internal combustion. There will be downsides that have to be addressed. Many of those downsides are being addressed... and are in their infancy. For instance, used batteries are eventually going to be mined for their metals until roughly 85% (projected) of the resources used to make new batteries come from them rather than from new mining.

I like my gas powered vehicles and won't be buying anything electric until they can fill my needs. But I'm not denying it will happen.

 

[RDFF]

The "beauty" of electric is that it only uses what it requires... = efficiency. Very little waste energy is lost as it gets converted to heat.

However, for a truck to be able to pull 80,000# over a hill or mountain, you need potentially 500+ hp at the ready. And when it's pulling on a flat road, alot of those "at the ready" hp are still consuming energy... even though they're not required for the load.

A hybrid setup however can use a much lower hp IC engine to maintain a full charge in a battery, so that the electic motor can DELIVER the full hp and torque on demand when needed... without "taxing" the IC engine further. That IC diesel engine then only has to be capable of delivering what the AVERAGE hp demand will be over the use of the truck... and it will still be able to deliver the FULL TORQUE AND HP CAPABILITY of the electric motor whenever needed, drawing the excess energy requirement from the battery reserve.

Now, the 500 hp semi can probably run at full required (but AVERAGED) capabilities over the course of the whole trip, with only perhaps a 150 hp IC motor, running at a much slower RPM. The diesel portion will never be asked for full power requirement to pull that load over the mountain.... Instead, it'll be "idling at optimum efficiency parameters" at all times... possibly even continuing to run at times when parked if needed to recharge the batteries again... Anytime a truck would be running downhill and needing to slow down or hold back the load, THAT energy would be "regeneratively" added back into the battery instead of wearing out the wheel brakes.

THAT is how electric would be most appropriate, IMO. The more weight one is trying to move, the MORE SENSE hybrid electric makes... that's why all diesel locomotives are "diesel-electric"... and have been for a very long time.

 

[RDFF]

Yeah...I can agree with every one of your concerns. Especially your last sentence. A single sided perspective isn't honest.

We are in a transition much like we saw going from horses to internal combustion. There will be downsides that have to be addressed. Many of those downsides are being addressed... and are in their infancy. For instance, used batteries are eventually going to be mined for their metals until roughly 85% (projected) of the resources used to make new batteries come from them rather than from new mining.

I like my gas powered vehicles and won't be buying anything electric until they can fill my needs. But I'm not denying it will happen.

I agree that "electric" drive is coming, and WILL BE the drive system of the future... even if the energy delivery for it comes from fuel cells, for example. We'll eventually eliminate the transmissions and drivelines completely... and just have electric motors at the wheels, with an "inboard energy supply system" (battery?, hybrid?, fuel cell?, "beam me up Scotty microwave receiver coming from satellite solar arrays?).

Can anybody tell my why we don't have air bag suspension on EVERY 3/4 and above pickup yet? How long has that been the primary suspension system on every semi? Why would the pickup manufacturers NOT be putting this on their pickups? And while we're at it, WHY don't we have air brakes on them too???? With air brakes on all of our pickup pulled trailers????

 

[greybeard]

costs to consumers. Both initially and maintenance down the road.
Air brakes on a passenger car would be overkill and would require another hp draining system under the hood (compressor,) as well as a reserve volume tank, piping and larger piping than in hyd brakes and of course, the diaphrams.

 

[Travlr]

I agree that "electric" drive is coming, and WILL BE the drive system of the future... even if the energy delivery for it comes from fuel cells, for example. We'll eventually eliminate the transmissions and drivelines completely... and just have electric motors at the wheels, with an "inboard energy supply system" (battery?, hybrid?, fuel cell?, "beam me up Scotty microwave receiver coming from satellite solar arrays?).

Can anybody tell my why we don't have air bag suspension on EVERY 3/4 and above pickup yet? How long has that been the primary suspension system on every semi? Why would the pickup manufacturers NOT be putting this on their pickups? And while we're at it, WHY don't we have air brakes on them too???? With air brakes on all of our pickup pulled trailers????

Personally... I like surge/hydraulic brakes on trailers.

 

[RDFF]

costs to consumers. Both initially and maintenance down the road.
Air brakes on a passenger car would be overkill and would require another hp draining system under the hood (compressor,) as well as a reserve volume tank, piping and larger piping than in hyd brakes and of course, the diaphrams.

I don't consider my truck to be a "passenger car"... 75% of the time it's got a trailer of some sort hooked onto it. It ought to at least be an "option" to have brakes and suspensions that are built to handle the loads. Electric brakes on trailers are more often just a "suggestion" to stop than anything. Pretty rare for any load I haul to be under that 14,000# that Musk is aiming for.

The thing about air brakes is, they actually WORK with heavy loads! Most "passenger cars" are designed to only "work" with the rated load capacity of the vehicle itself. 3/4T+ pickups get a bit of an upgrade to that... but of course still (appropriately) rely primarily on the brakes on the trailer behind to stop whatever load you put behind... and most of those trailer brakes (electric in particular) AREN'T doing the job that they need to, most of the time. Trailers are loaded heavier than anticipated..., and the trailer brakes don't work as well as designed even..., etc. I've been driving semis for years... air brakes are a MUCH more dependable system for reliably controlling the load... and better than hydraulic brakes too.

 

[hurleyjd]

Maybe, if geared. I've worked with diesel electric in several different sectors and 200hp is still only 200hp. Putting 200hp to the 8 truck driving wheels is one thing but getting that 200hp divided out to all 18 (16?) for braking is a little different animal.
My gut feeling is you might need a small auxilliary generator to handle the braking and leave the propulsion system separate.

R.G. LeTourneau earth moving machines had electric wheel motors with the electricity being generated with a diesel powered generator. Also Ford expermented with electric wheel motors on a Ford Fiesta in Germany. Also Germany has some plants that recycles all components from batteries.

 

[50/50Farms]

We are in a transition much like we saw going from horses to internal combustion. There will be downsides that have to be addressed. Many of those downsides are being addressed... and are in their infancy. For instance, used batteries are eventually going to be mined for their metals until roughly 85% (projected) of the resources used to make new batteries come from them rather than from new mining.

Yeah, except I don't think any states or countries were trying to force a cessation in production and sale of new horses for people who wanted to keep doing it their way...

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

Most consumers don't want the headache that comes with air brakes. Be it frozen brakes, compressor and tank to maintain, air governor malfunctions, slack adjuster adjustments, and the list goes on.

Hydraulic brakes are fairly maintance free for most people.

If you haul heavy and think air brakes will solve a problem then buy yourself a medium duty truck and get your CDL with air brake endorsement and start hauling.

Simple fact is the vast majority of 1/2 and 3/4 ton trucks on the road are used primarily as an oversized grocery getter.

 

[50/50Farms]

A CDL is always worth having anyway.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

If you have a reason to have one. But along with it comes a whole new set of regulations and rules to abide by.

Farm plates and staying within the confines of "farm use" is a much better way to fly for most guys.

 

[RDFF]

Simple fact is the vast majority of 1/2 and 3/4 ton trucks on the road are used primarily as an oversized grocery getter.

That's all any 1/2T pickup is anyway......... glorified car w/a bigger trunk space... not even worth considering if you're ever pulling any trailers...!

 

[greybeard]

I don't consider my truck to be a "passenger car"... 75% of the time it's got a trailer of some sort hooked onto it. It ought to at least be an "option" to have brakes and suspensions that are built to handle the loads. Electric brakes on trailers are more often just a "suggestion" to stop than anything. Pretty rare for any load I haul to be under that 14,000# that Musk is aiming for.

The thing about air brakes is, they actually WORK with heavy loads! Most "passenger cars" are designed to only "work" with the rated load capacity of the vehicle itself.

All true.

Most of us tho, frequently exceed the rated load on both 3/4 & /\ trucks and our trailers. That's on us, not on the manufacturer.

Even on heavier pickups and flatbeds, you still have to account for the engineering, parts placements and the diaphrams within the wheelwell space. With just a moderately optioned 3/4 ton pick now running $60-70K, (new Chevy 2500) how much more will the consumer be willing to pay for the added technology when what they have now in regards to ride and braking is usually sufficient?

 

[50/50Farms]

If you have a reason to have one. But along with it comes a whole new set of regulations and rules to abide by.

Farm plates and staying within the confines of "farm use" is a much better way to fly for most guys.

I like having the blanket coverage on what I can and can't operate, I've got an unrestricted Class A with tanker and hazmat, going for doubles/triples sooner or sooner. I just like being able to drive just about damn anything I'm liable to encounter.

 

[Travlr]

That's all any 1/2T pickup is anyway......... glorified car w/a bigger trunk space... not even worth considering if you're ever pulling any trailers...!

Awwww c'mon... People all over the world use 1/2 ton trucks and they do well for what they are designed to do. In fact they often outperform their specs by quite a lot.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

A new 1/2ton truck will tow more than a 3/4ton truck of 10-15 years ago.

I started with an 87 F250 which has 12" brakes up front and barely there drums out back. A frame so flexy that the cab and box would touch one another.

A new 1/2 ton has 13+" rotors all around boxed frames that barely flex an inch, 10 speed transmissions to get loads moving, etc.

A modern 1/2 ton truck is much more than a "glorified car", if its used within its designed capacities.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

If you have a reason to have a CDL with all them endorsements then its just the ticket.

For a simple cattle farmer like myself there's no need for all that headache.

 

[RDFF]

All true.

Most of us tho, frequently exceed the rated load on both 3/4 & /\ trucks and our trailers. That's on us, not on the manufacturer.

Even on heavier pickups and flatbeds, you still have to account for the engineering, parts placements and the diaphrams within the wheelwell space. With just a moderately optioned 3/4 ton pick now running $60-70K, (new Chevy 2500) how much more will the consumer be willing to pay for the added technology when what they have now in regards to ride and braking is usually sufficient?

Yup... I understand that... but for $70K, you'd think that you'd be able to have brakes that actually will stop a load......... I'm mostly just whining about the electric trailer brakes that are on most trailers behind pickups I guess... and the pickup suspensions that can't rightly support "a little more than the truck is rated for".............. On my semi, if I overload it, it still will ride good, without "squatting"... it just pumps more air into the bags. Eventually of course, you'd reach a point where you'd blow them out... but for a minimal overload... you just never notice it. And the brakes always work effectively, period. I doubt that any fully (and properly) loaded gooseneck trailer will be capable of actually locking up the wheels with electric brakes... I've never seen it at least..., and that's what's really NECESSARY to be able to be fully safe. So then you end up relying much more heavily on the truck and IT'S brake system to be able to stop that load... more so than it was designed/intended to have to do. If you're using your head, it works... until you end up in an emergency situation... then all bets are off.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

Guys in the US think they need a 1 ton dually to haul a 14k lbs load. And 1/2 the rest of the world is towing that with a 30 year old Toyota Hylux.