Hybrid Vigor: 4 way cross vs single cross.

[gaurus]

Reading on Heterosis I see that an F1 cow mated to a F1 bull(of different breed composition) will out do in term of Hybrid vigor any other cross, but I believe that a Charolais bull mated to a good maternal line of cow, but I could be wrong.

 

[ANAZAZI]

A threeway cross and a four way cross is about the same in heterosis. A threeway has more consistency in the offspring, so more profitable. With a crossbred cow from breed 1 and 2 mated to a bull from breed 3, you get full MATERNAL HETEROSIS in the cow plus full DIRECT HETEROSIS in the calf at the same time. Added bonus is if the first two breeds are MATERNAL BREEDS and the third bull is from a TERMINAL BREED. Maternal heterosis is more important economically than direct heterosis if you have to choose.

A threeway cross gives no extra advantage over a two way cross if the cow is a purebred and the bull is crossbred.

The mechanism behind this is that genes work in pairs and the best pairs are the heterozygous ones, that means the one gene in the pair is different from the other gene in the pair.
This has two reasons, one being that dominant genes bring more fitness to the offspring than recessive genes, the other reason being that sometimes the two genes working together have a wider range of adaptability than two of the same variety, Theoretically that second thing would make a fourway cross with more heterosis (and much less uniformity), in practice there is very little to be had (proving that the first reason is more important).

The easiest way to get lots of heterozygosity is to crossbreed two different breeds.

The only way to repeat it is to add unrelated breed(s) in the next generation.

 

[Caustic Burno]

A threeway cross and a four way cross is about the same in heterosis. A threeway has more consistency in the offspring, so more profitable. With a crossbred cow from breed 1 and 2 mated to a bull from breed 3, you get full MATERNAL HETEROSIS in the cow plus full DIRECT HETEROSIS in the calf at the same time. Added bonus is if the first two breeds are MATERNAL BREEDS and the third bull is from a TERMINAL BREED. Maternal heterosis is more important economically than direct heterosis if you have to choose.

A threeway cross gives no extra advantage over a two way cross if the cow is a purebred and the bull is crossbred.

The mechanism behind this is that genes work in pairs and the best pairs are the heterozygous ones, that means the one gene in the pair is different from the other gene in the pair.
This has two reasons, one being that dominant genes bring more fitness to the offspring than recessive genes, the other reason being that sometimes the two genes working together have a wider range of adaptability than two of the same variety, Theoretically that second thing would make a fourway cross with more heterosis (and much less uniformity), in practice there is very little to be had (proving that the first reason is more important).

The easiest way to get lots of heterozygosity is to crossbreed two different breeds.

The only way to repeat it is to add unrelated breed(s) in the next generation.

Correct good write up you actually start losing after a 3 way get to many crayons out of the DNA box
You have to use the right three breeds to maximize the hybred vigor.
If I remember right U of Fla study showed the worst 3 way was Angus/Herf/SH

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

gaurus, where is your operation located?

 

[Nesikep]

A threeway cross and a four way cross is about the same in heterosis. A threeway has more consistency in the offspring, so more profitable. With a crossbred cow from breed 1 and 2 mated to a bull from breed 3, you get full MATERNAL HETEROSIS in the cow plus full DIRECT HETEROSIS in the calf at the same time. Added bonus is if the first two breeds are MATERNAL BREEDS and the third bull is from a TERMINAL BREED. Maternal heterosis is more important economically than direct heterosis if you have to choose.

A threeway cross gives no extra advantage over a two way cross if the cow is a purebred and the bull is crossbred.

The mechanism behind this is that genes work in pairs and the best pairs are the heterozygous ones, that means the one gene in the pair is different from the other gene in the pair.
This has two reasons, one being that dominant genes bring more fitness to the offspring than recessive genes, the other reason being that sometimes the two genes working together have a wider range of adaptability than two of the same variety, Theoretically that second thing would make a fourway cross with more heterosis (and much less uniformity), in practice there is very little to be had (proving that the first reason is more important).

The easiest way to get lots of heterozygosity is to crossbreed two different breeds.

The only way to repeat it is to add unrelated breed(s) in the next generation.

Correct good write up you actually start losing after a 3 way get to many crayons out of the DNA box
You have to use the right three breeds to maximize the hybred vigor.
If I remember right U of Fla study showed the worst 3 way was Angus/Herf/SH

That's probably because of the Angus.. No, because they're all british breeds.. I think if you had an Angus Simm cow bred shorthorn or hereford it would work well again, or perhaps Sim/Brah bred Angus, which gives you a breed from 3 different groups of cattle (continental, british, and brahman).

I think you start losing uniformity if you keep crossing to wildly different breeds.. I have some 4-5 way cross cows, and they and their calves are pretty uniform because I looked for the same traits regardless of breed.. just taking color as an example, I've never strayed from reds.. had I ever had longhorn, char belties or black in there it would take 10 generations to get rid of the spots (I did have some shorthorn and I'm having a time getting the chrome under control)

 

[ANAZAZI]

Correct good write up you actually start losing after a 3 way get to many crayons out of the DNA box
You have to use the right three breeds to maximize the hybred vigor.
If I remember right U of Fla study showed the worst 3 way was Angus/Herf/SH

Yes simply because these breeds are too related to give the full bang (Angus being very close to and partly derived from Shorthorn). While crossing a british breed to a continental, african or asian breed gives far more heterosis, the prime example being Hereford crossed with Brahma and a French or Italian breed as a terminal.

 

[WalnutCrest]

Regarding the terminal bulls to be used on these F1 "Maternal Breed x. Maternal Breed" cows ... presumably you'd be a fan of 100% fullbloods (vs. the 'black' Char / Lim / Bonde / Romagnola / Pied / etc. that are floating around out there).

 

[Ebenezer]

Issue becomes management and in and out of bulls, replacement heifers and breeds. Large operation would be better suited unless you AI a lot of cows. Unfortunately, when the 4way X calves hit the market they need to be polled and black to bring top dollar in barns around us. And the resultant heifers are all mongrelized enough that they all go as terminals. So you need a group of cows to produce F1 daughters to keep it all or else you constantly are buying in cattle.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Issue becomes management and in and out of bulls, replacement heifers and breeds. Large operation would be better suited unless you AI a lot of cows. Unfortunately, when the 4way X calves hit the market they need to be polled and black to bring top dollar in barns around us. And the resultant heifers are all mongrelized enough that they all go as terminals. So you need a group of cows to produce F1 daughters to keep it all or else you constantly are buying in cattle.

In the Brahman crosses you get a lot longer longevity twenty years is not uncommon. You are right about replacements that is were management comes in as the older cows age out they are buying their replacements .

 

[WalnutCrest]

To me, the only way this sort of a deal makes sense is like this:

Cow Breed A -- AI cows / heifers to bulls of Breed A to make your own replacements, running a bull from Breed B as live cover to make your F1s
Cow Breed B -- AI cows / heifers to bulls of Breed B, running bulls from Breed A as live cover
Cow Breed C & D -- same as with A & B

You've got to AI the cows/heifers of each breed to that particular breed so you can make your own F1s. You may not choose to do this every year, but you should do it at least one in three years, and possibly every other year.

You can save lots of time (and probably lots of money) if you either (i) work with a producer who's making F1s of a particular cross you're wanting to use and make an agreement to buy his F1 females and the top end of his bull crop (we're doing this with a producer who wants a particular F1 Aubrac X heifer; there are others that do this sort of 'custom work' in other breeds) ... and/or ... (ii) use two relatively easy to find sets of F1s (like Balancers, Brangus, LimFlex, etc.).

As mentioned above, the more disparate your breeds, the greater the opportunity to retain some heterosis in your herd -- think getting one breed from each of the following groups --- Indicus, Sanga, Taurus-British, and Taurus-Continental --- would be the way to go for your four-way cross. Think Brahma, Mashona, Murray Grey and Aubrac ... or ... Gir, Tuli, Hereford and Limousin ... or ...

Also, as I've not yet seen mentioned, the more breeds (and the more foundation animals of each breed) you include in your selection, the longer it's going to take you (think decades, not merely years) to stabilize your herd phenotype.

Lastly, you must (!!) keep a very sharp knife on your bulls you use to make this composite --- the larger the contemporary group the better your odds. If you've not read Man, Cattle, Veld by Johann Zietsman, I'd highly recommend it -- he spends quite a bit of time discussing composite breeding and animal selection for subsequent generations (i.e., how do you know which bull calf you should keep back to breed over the next years, etc.).

Good luck to you!

 

[Caustic Burno]

There is a market for replacements here the Tiger and Brangus will always top the market through the barn.