How to develop a productive herd ?

[robert]

over the past 5 years when we haven't sold any large groups of females for breeding so the only cows leaving have been for 'real' cull reasons the cull rate has been minimal, with a defined breeding season (march 25th thru may 25th, give or take a day or two either way) we have averaged around 95% bred, with those AI'd once averaging >85% settled to that service. For me, the fertility, production and quality of my herd continues to improve, year to year we don't make big changes to the program though I expect within the next few years to reduce the AI component to a minimal amount with home raised sires doing the majority of the breeding. Keep in mind we are doing this out of synch with nature by calving in jan/feb, breeding in mar/april in order to supply yearling bulls that have adequate size and maturity to breed 25 commercial cows in their first year, if we weren't looking to sell bulls I would scrap january calving and go to april/may. I don't think we're doing anything special, folks are free to follow or disagree with my methods, it may be madness to some but it does have method!! I don't think there's anything too complicated about raising beef cattle, we keep it very simple and straightforward, give them access to the best quality feed you can, expect them to get bred, calve themselves, own the calf and raise it, then do it all again, year after year, they're not pets, don't make excuses for 'favorites' (been down that road before, if they can kick you in the a$$ once they can do it again, and they will!) I'm sorry I don't have reams of stats to back up what we do and why we do it, but I do know, thanks to Jeanne I have an additional $1350 in my pocket

 

[Dylan Biggs]

we are about 70 mi from Jeanne, I know we are low in copper, selenium, soils tend towards a slightly acid (5.7 - 6.5). It really isn't a case of our ground/forage meeting all mineral requirements, it is a case of not providing crutches to mask adaptability. I have to laugh when I hear all the grazing guru's preach no crutches and then add the caveat "except minerals and salt of course", we don't do anything remarkable or different, we rotationally graze, we feed dry, mostly 1st cut hay to the brood cows and coming twos, from when the grass is gone to about early march (we calve Jan, feb) then add some 3rd/4th cut baleage from early march thru breeding season (late march til late april) then out to grass again. Over time the one's that make it stay and reproduce, the one's that don't, well, it's why we call them beef cattle isn't it? Yes, I'm a cheap be nice, but the selection over time for production within my constraints has resulted in a cow herd that is fertile, utilizes the resources available and produces a saleable product, and I'm happy with that.

It depends on ones selection goals, quite often seed stock herds apply or should in my opinion more selection pressure for traits of economic importance. I think that what Robert is doing is a good way to end up with cows that require less inputs, and it doesn't sound like it is costing him in productivity. We feed a touch of trace mineral salt blocks, I am not sure why other then that they seem to enjoy it and some times for better grazing distribution. This past year we went through about 25 blocks for around 600 head of stock. I think Roberts no crutches conviction is good management from a selection stand point.

 

[TexasBred]

define 'better or easier'.

As in less culling, less work, better results.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

The short answer is that the only way you are going to have a more fertile and more productive herd is to cull all cows raising poor calves and also cull all cows not calving within the expected timeframe regardless of how good the calf looked at weaning. How much supplement you give is up to you, but like Robert i give nothing, but that will ultimately decide how hard you're going to cull in those initial years.

In my case my breeding season is from 1 Oct - 30 Nov, the bulls get pulled and all opens at weaning gets fattened for slaughter. All cows not able to raise a marketable calf at weaning time gets culled regardless of whether she is in calf or not. All faults, especially poor doers and big teats get culled at the same time. Do this for 3 years and you'll be surprised how much progress you have made.

In addition an annual BSE exam and don't settle for good or fair go for excellent semen quality, especially if you are retaining replacement heifers.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

A mineral program isn't very "measureable". How do you know if your great herd couldn't be doing better??
(BTW folks - Robert and I ARE friends :lol: )

That begs the question, how do you know definitively, that your cow herd is doing better because of your mineral supplement?

Do you have a systematic process that measures and quantifies a benefit directly attributable to the mineral?

 

[tripleBfarms]

A mineral program isn't very "measureable". How do you know if your great herd couldn't be doing better??
(BTW folks - Robert and I ARE friends :lol: )

That begs the question, how do you know definitively, that your cow herd is doing better because of your mineral supplement?

Because Grandad and Sweetlix said they were. ;-)

 

[Commercialfarmer]

A mineral program isn't very "measureable". How do you know if your great herd couldn't be doing better??
(BTW folks - Robert and I ARE friends :lol: )

That begs the question, how do you know definitively, that your cow herd is doing better because of your mineral supplement?

Do you have a systematic process that measures and quantifies a benefit directly attributable to the mineral?

I don't know if Jeanne can give you an accurate quantifiable financial benefits figure at her place without having a control herd that is not receiving supplements, but I have known several individuals that could speak to their losses by not having a good program.

If you can manage your herd without it as Robert does, I think that is great. I will never say anything can't be done, especially in the game of genetic selection. But I don't believe it is sound advice for someone getting started in the business or for normal producers. There are plenty of studies to show you that the average herd will significantly benefit from supplementation.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Well put Commercialfarmer. Actually, over the years, we have "tweeked" our mineral program because of problems that have been corrected.

 

[redcowsrule33]

Our ancestors survived without mineral and vitamin supplementation, but most of us are performing better than they did because of it. Hypergroceriosis excluded. And unless you drink your own milk and grinding your own flour for bread and cereal you are taking supplements. Just sayin'.

 

[hillbillycwo]

Robert thanks for the follow on. It appears that your decision paid off for you. I know that if I don't feed free choice mineral I loose calves and have breeding back issues. I am interested in your methodology however and after I get my farm more established I will definitely revisit this idea as a potential cost savings down the road. Expecially once I get my grass where I want it.

 

[TexasBred]

A mineral program isn't very "measureable". How do you know if your great herd couldn't be doing better??
(BTW folks - Robert and I ARE friends :lol: )

That begs the question, how do you know definitively, that your cow herd is doing better because of your mineral supplement?

Do you have a systematic process that measures and quantifies a benefit directly attributable to the mineral?

"lack of necessary minerals "certainly will show it's head in breeding, calving, growth, etc. Just hard to measure if all you've ever seen are the "guys and gals and results" you have in your system.

 

[Victoria]

If the cow is rebreeding as soon as the calf is pulled then I would guess it is not so much the genetics of the cow and her fertility that is the issue. I would think it is either lack of feed or the wrong feed (including mineral). Do you have a good relationship with a good vet? If so talk to him/her. They could help you discover what your cows are missing.

 

[agmantoo]

Robert and I do a lot of things in common.

I may even take the reductions in producing the feeder calves I produce further than he takes his animals. I truly am a least cost producer. A single closed herd, except for the bull which is purchased, is maintained and remains co-mingled at all times. I calve year round and market at least 4 times/yr, apply no commercial fertilizer, give no shots nor have a vet, cattle are not wormed, fed no hay (drought excluded) or grain and run a single bull with approximately 100 head of brood cows, no second chances for non producers, bad actors or inferior results. I am not a midwife to a cow either. No herbicides are applied to the pasture.

Of the things I do, I do with a dedication. Since I am rotating pastures daily I observe the animals closely. I try to never stress the animals. Body condition is typically maintained above 5. I move the herd without a lot of fanfare. They are calm and they know the routine. They even seem to know if they are not where they are suppose to be. The forage during growing season is mostly lush endophyte infected fescue and various legumes. I clip seed heads to reduce the possibility of pinkeye and to prolong the grazing duration. The PH is kept above 5.8 (acid soil here). I do feed a mineral supplement. However, my cattle do eat red dirt at times. I have read of people lacking in minerals and the consequence such as scurvy and goiter and that is why I use a mineral supplement. We definitely have a copper deficiency and the supplement reduces the hair discoloration. Eliminating mineral supplement is not in my plans.

I ear tagged 92 calves in 2010, culled 4 cows and buried 1 cow and 3 calves.

Would I recommend a newbie following my example? No. I would recommend anyone that is in the business for profit and the long haul to strive to become a low cost producer over time, however.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

A mineral program isn't very "measureable". How do you know if your great herd couldn't be doing better??
(BTW folks - Robert and I ARE friends :lol: )

That begs the question, how do you know definitively, that your cow herd is doing better because of your mineral supplement?

Do you have a systematic process that measures and quantifies a benefit directly attributable to the mineral?

"lack of necessary minerals "certainly will show it's head in breeding, calving, growth, etc. Just hard to measure if all you've ever seen are the "guys and gals and results" you have in your system.

No doubt supplementation is required in and for a number of different circumstances,that can not be argued, but on the other hand a lot of supplementation is given based on assumed need and benefit, when in fact there is not the need nor the benefit, only the cost. Don't assume you need XYZ mineral just because. Test the forage your cattle are actually grazing, at different stages of growth through the year and find out what supplement and or mix there of is actually needed.

 

[cowboy43]

It has been my observation if you keep mineral and protein out year round they will consume it as their system needs it, when the grass is high in protein they will not eat it and as grass quality goes down they will start eating as their system requies it.

 

[TexasBred]

No doubt supplementation is required in and for a number of different circumstances,that can not be argued, but on the other hand a lot of supplementation is given based on assumed need and benefit, when in fact there is not the need nor the benefit, only the cost. Don't assume you need XYZ mineral just because. Test the forage your cattle are actually grazing, at different stages of growth through the year and find out what supplement and or mix there of is actually needed.

Dylan most mineral work in conjunction with other minerals in order to get maximum utilization of both, while others are antagonist to other minerals inhibiting or completely blocking absorption and utilization. At $.12-$.15 a day I'll feed a well balanced mineral to everything all the time and let the cattle figure out how much they need for themselves and how much they will excrete to the soil which usually needs it as well. Hard to find a feed company that will manufacture a custom formulation unless you place a large order and even then they'd probably place a disclaimer on it that it if not what they would recommend and therefore assume no liability for negative results.

 

[oakcreekfarms]

I have always felt like if i treat the cattle right, they will treat me right. You can't starve a profit out of a cow, and you can't feed it in either. However, there is a fine line. A good productive cow in good shape will produce more weight at weaning than the same cow would if she was trying to maintain her own health. A woman breast feeding must eat a certain amount to stay in shape and produce enough milk for her baby. Cattle are the same, the body will not produce milk at its greatest if the cow is struggling to meet her own needs. There are farmers that simply look at less inputs, less cost, more profit, but this model is typically false. There are plenty of small costs that you can add to your program that will more then pay for themselves. In ones situation, mineral might be that added value. Or a lb of DDG's 30 days before calving up to grass turnout. I am just trying to say that cutting cost doesn't always equal more profit.

On the question that started this thread. Buy how ever many cows you can without putting yourself in a tough spot (I know you already said no loans). I would AI the cows, keep the heifers, and sell the steers. Once your herd starts to build in numbers start culling. Cull hard, I truelly believe that this should be enjoyable for good cattleman. The resulting herd is always one step closer to where you would like to be. Use the best bulls or semen you can afford, keep heifers, and cull. Your management will change over time, and make sure you ask outsiders for their opinions of your cattle. Use the extension agent in the area, and ask questions.

 

[robert]

If you build it, they will come

if only to see if I'm as dumb as I appear to be
dubya, dubya, dubya dot tullyfergus dot com for cattle getting the profit starved out of them :banana:

 

[plumber_greg]

I agree with oakcreek and TB. Many times someone will say how low their cost of production is and then when asked about it, you find that there is a lot of expenses that they don't charge to the cattle. Land charge, deprecation, equipment cost cuz' it's paid for, loss of oportunity. Your cattle cost isn't just what you paid out of your pocket this year to put the calves in the salebarn.
THe only thing I would add to their statements is, even if you have to buy less cattle, still buy quality. Nothing takes longer to straighten out than a bunch of short and solid cattle bought in the sale barn. It takes generations to change quality, buy it when you get into it. Let someone else do the work grunt for you and improve their genetics. Don't aim for the top 15% of the sale, aim for the top. It costs no more to produce the top than it does the bottom in most cases. Case in point, how many of have sold dinks at the salebarn, cost just as much to produce them as our best ones. My opinion only gs

 

[Commercialfarmer]

I hope to not sound elementary, but an easy way of increasing fertility in a herd is heterosis. If know you have a commercial herd, but if they are pure bred or close to pure bred animals, using F1 crosses will make a quick improvement. Definitely agree culling cows that are not rebreeding quickly, having BSE exams (including ruling out VD such as trichomoniasis), making sure you have a good mineral program that matches your environment, having cattle at BCS 5 or a little better at time of calving specifically (can significantly improve duration of time to rebreeding) even if the fall quite a bit with lactation. Evaluate how much milk production your cattle have- seems a lot of people these days think the more the better, but cattle that have milking potential above what is necessary are harder to maintain condition on even during the dry period (can't recall exactly, but I think either Oklahoma State University or South Dakota State did some work in this area).


In regards to vaccination protocols and overall wellness care: Native Americans were an isolated population for many centuries. Small pox was not heard of so it would be crazy to vaccinate this population. This is a lot like closed herds that do not vaccinate and do not see issues with IBR, BVD, Blackleg, etc.. The concern comes when you purchase a new bull, neighbors cattle get in to your herd, natural disaster strikes and fences are down, purchase/rent new pastures. If your herd is not protected, it can have dramatic results like small pox when it was introduced in North America for the first time.

The only way you will know that your cattle are truly naturally resistant, is by exposure to the agent. If you have a closed herd with no actively infected members, then the next guy (the stocker man, feedlot guy, or individual buying replacements) will be the one to find out if they are resistant. Buyers take notice of this. If you have actively infected members, then you will be likely be seeing effects each year.

In business, every decision will ultimately be decided on cost/risk vs benefit. Wellness care is not just capturing "loss of opportunity" for your upcoming calf crop, but also insurance for some pricey investments. How many lost opportunities does it take at $1.50 a lb to break even.

What is harder for me to understand, is how producers that in all natural programs do not take advantage of implants. It is the only thing I can think of that you get a ~ $20 return on every $1 investment.