How to develop a productive herd ?

[Angus Cowman]

What is harder for me to understand, is how producers that in all natural programs do not take advantage of implants. It is the only thing I can think of that you get a ~ $20 return on every $1 investment.

you lost me on that one!!!

all the all natural programs I have dealt with forbid the use of implants

 

[Dylan Biggs]

No doubt supplementation is required in and for a number of different circumstances,that can not be argued, but on the other hand a lot of supplementation is given based on assumed need and benefit, when in fact there is not the need nor the benefit, only the cost. Don't assume you need XYZ mineral just because. Test the forage your cattle are actually grazing, at different stages of growth through the year and find out what supplement and or mix there of is actually needed.

Dylan most mineral work in conjunction with other minerals in order to get maximum utilization of both, while others are antagonist to other minerals inhibiting or completely blocking absorption and utilization. At $.12-$.15 a day I'll feed a well balanced mineral to everything all the time and let the cattle figure out how much they need for themselves and how much they will excrete to the soil which usually needs it as well. Hard to find a feed company that will manufacture a custom formulation unless you place a large order and even then they'd probably place a disclaimer on it that it if not what they would recommend and therefore assume no liability for negative results.

TB, balancing a mineral supplement without knowledge of what your cows may or may not be getting out of their pasture is a shotgun approach.
I am not advocating against supplementing mineral when an actual deficiency is known to exist. A shotgun mineral mix definitely works for the feed company it may not be benefiting your cows.
As regards the soil, there is an argument to be made for replacing exported nutrients, but Jeanne asked Robert "How do you know if your great herd couldn't be doing better??", all I asked is "how she knows her cows are doing better because of the mineral?". A simple enough question. I am not suggesting they aren't.
Regarding the viability of a customized mineral mix dependent on scale, you raise a legitimate point.

 

[Commercialfarmer]

What is harder for me to understand, is how producers that in all natural programs do not take advantage of implants. It is the only thing I can think of that you get a ~ $20 return on every $1 investment.

you lost me on that one!!!

all the all natural programs I have dealt with forbid the use of implants

Statement is missing an important "are not". producers that are not in all natural programs.... Thanks for catching that.

 

[plumber_greg]

What ya' got to remember(Robert, I'm not picken on you), is that without a control group, he has no idea if the mineral is necessary or not, or if it would help him.
I could spend a year feeding my cattle half enough feed and argue that you are not doing it right cuz' I'm getting along fine. But, if I am feeding a control group the required amount, I could tell you what the difference is in productivity.Without it, I have nothing to compare it to except what I think.
Same as saying my freezer beef is better than anyone's elses, if I ain't tasted yours I don't really know, it's just what I want to believe. Makes me feel I'm doing it right. gs

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

errr posted this long message & it got bumped out - gone!
Anyway --- I do know that my mineral program has helped us. We are fortunate that we have a local company (husband's employer!) that custom blends mineral.
The local extension used our herd to research SE and bled a % of our herd several times, increasing the SE in the mineral as they were tested until we got it to a level that our cattle had "normal" blood levels. We had been giving them MuSe shots prior to calving - prior to breeding & again in the fall at workup. Without it, our cattle had scruffy hair coats, longer than normal labors, poor breeding, few retained placentas. We went "cold turkey" and quit giving any shots - just the mineral. And our breeding program improved, hair coats good & ww up.
Then, a few years ago, I started noticing our cows weren't shedding their haircoat, had scruffy hair, had more late cycles & more opens. Slowly got worse. Finally, I pinpointed the problem to a new water source that had sulfa in it. We researched it and Sulfa inhibits the ability to obsorb/utilize SE & copper - so we adjusted our mineral - back to normal.
BTW - Robert has a great herd. You may have seen him & his herd on TV. Maybe he's on to something?? or maybe his herd could be EVEN BETTER. :banana:
I figure the extra WW and early breeding pays most, if not all the $27/year ($0.07/day)

 

[robert]

What ya' got to remember(Robert, I'm not picken on you), is that without a control group, he has no idea if the mineral is necessary or not, or if it would help him.
I could spend a year feeding my cattle half enough feed and argue that you are not doing it right cuz' I'm getting along fine. But, if I am feeding a control group the required amount, I could tell you what the difference is in productivity.Without it, I have nothing to compare it to except what I think.
Same as saying my freezer beef is better than anyone's elses, if I ain't tasted yours I don't really know, it's just what I want to believe. Makes me feel I'm doing it right. gs

I agree, which is why I was only relaying my experience in regards to the management decisions I have made over time, the mineral thing was more of a throw away comment but seems to have developed a reasonable debate, without comparing how my cattle could do vs. how they are doing I won't know, but on the other hand I have no wish to break from something that is a) working and b) a constant selection pressure. We all want to believe we are doing the best we can for our cattle to give us the financial return to continue in business and the lifestyle we have chosen, I add that as a seedstock producer anything I can do that makes my environment at least as tough, if not tougher than my commercial bull customers will be an additional benefit to them down the road.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

errr posted this long message & it got bumped out - gone!
Anyway --- I do know that my mineral program has helped us. We are fortunate that we have a local company (husband's employer!) that custom blends mineral.
The local extension used our herd to research SE and bled a % of our herd several times, increasing the SE in the mineral as they were tested until we got it to a level that our cattle had "normal" blood levels. We had been giving them MuSe shots prior to calving - prior to breeding & again in the fall at workup. Without it, our cattle had scruffy hair coats, longer than normal labors, poor breeding, few retained placentas. We went "cold turkey" and quit giving any shots - just the mineral. And our breeding program improved, hair coats good & ww up.
Then, a few years ago, I started noticing our cows weren't shedding their haircoat, had scruffy hair, had more late cycles & more opens. Slowly got worse. Finally, I pinpointed the problem to a new water source that had sulfa in it. We researched it and Sulfa inhibits the ability to obsorb/utilize SE & copper - so we adjusted our mineral - back to normal.
BTW - Robert has a great herd. You may have seen him & his herd on TV. Maybe he's on to something?? or maybe his herd could be EVEN BETTER. :banana:
I figure the extra WW and early breeding pays most, if not all the $27/year ($0.07/day)

Jeanne, thank you for that information.
Your situation illustrates the value of a customized mineral program designed to address the specific deficiencies in your herd.
A management decision made based on a reality not just an assumption. :tiphat:

 

[TexasBred]

errr posted this long message & it got bumped out - gone!
Anyway --- I do know that my mineral program has helped us. We are fortunate that we have a local company (husband's employer!) that custom blends mineral.
The local extension used our herd to research SE and bled a % of our herd several times, increasing the SE in the mineral as they were tested until we got it to a level that our cattle had "normal" blood levels. We had been giving them MuSe shots prior to calving - prior to breeding & again in the fall at workup. Without it, our cattle had scruffy hair coats, longer than normal labors, poor breeding, few retained placentas. We went "cold turkey" and quit giving any shots - just the mineral. And our breeding program improved, hair coats good & ww up.
Then, a few years ago, I started noticing our cows weren't shedding their haircoat, had scruffy hair, had more late cycles & more opens. Slowly got worse. Finally, I pinpointed the problem to a new water source that had sulfa in it. We researched it and Sulfa inhibits the ability to obsorb/utilize SE & copper - so we adjusted our mineral - back to normal.
BTW - Robert has a great herd. You may have seen him & his herd on TV. Maybe he's on to something?? or maybe his herd could be EVEN BETTER. :banana:

I figure the extra WW and early breeding pays most, if not all the $27/year ($0.07/day)

Jeanne that's all well and good but as you know "you are the exception rather than the rule" and having your husband work for the manufacturer certainly helps. You go to a feed mill around her and ask for a customer mineral and they'll look at you like you're crazy and most small mills don't have the precision measuring ability and mixing ability to do it propertly anyway. When I dairied we had custom minerals but had to buy a truckload at a time and that put a big dent in the wallet.

 

[dun]

There are enough herds around here that never see minerals and I hear the horror storys of unthrifty calves, poor conception rates, etc. A little detective work will usually give you a pretty good idea of if you need minerals and what minerals work best in your area.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

TB - you are sooo right - as I said "I am fortunate" to have that ability. In our area, there are many mineral mixes balanced "for this area" so to speak - BUT, they are balanced for a dairy cow. The mill here took our "original" formula (before all our 20 years of "tweeking" and they call it "White's beef mineral" (my last name is White ) and that's what beef producers in this area purchase.
But, what I was getting at is, if mineral is available around here for "specific area dairymen" - shouldn't mineral be available in different areas FOR those areas in beef country???

 

[ALACOWMAN]

What ya' got to remember(Robert, I'm not picken on you), is that without a control group, he has no idea if the mineral is necessary or not, or if it would help him.
I could spend a year feeding my cattle half enough feed and argue that you are not doing it right cuz' I'm getting along fine. But, if I am feeding a control group the required amount, I could tell you what the difference is in productivity.Without it, I have nothing to compare it to except what I think.
Same as saying my freezer beef is better than anyone's elses, if I ain't tasted yours I don't really know, it's just what I want to believe. Makes me feel I'm doing it right. gs

I agree, which is why I was only relaying my experience in regards to the management decisions I have made over time, the mineral thing was more of a throw away comment but seems to have developed a reasonable debate, without comparing how my cattle could do vs. how they are doing I won't know, but on the other hand I have no wish to break from something that is a) working and b) a constant selection pressure. We all want to believe we are doing the best we can for our cattle to give us the financial return to continue in business and the lifestyle we have chosen, I add that as a seedstock producer anything I can do that makes my environment at least as tough, if not tougher than my commercial bull customers will be an additional benefit to them down the road.

exactly... :cowboy:

 

[plumber_greg]

Robert and Ala, that sounds like an exellent seedstock philosahy(too big a word for a plumber to spwll). But, Robert what happens to the seedstock when they are sold and supplied minerals. Is it the same problems that others have by not buying bulls raised the way they are gonna' use them? As an example, a bull raised on bermuda grass, will die on enphodyte fescue, will it go the other way also? gs

 

[robert]

so far, and I've only got 10 years of reports on this, my customers have found the bulls they bought from me live longer, stay sound and productive, mature into 1900 to 2200lbs bulls, with excellent dispositions. We've bought a number of them back to use ourselves as 4,5 or 6 year olds, in fact our 3 main sires for this coming year fit that description. Keep in mind we're selling these bulls in NY, they're not going across the country into wildly different environments, at least not yet they aren't, so how they'd do elsewhere I simply don't know. I do however believe that in genetics you get what you select for, if you apply a degree of consistency to your management. If it works for my customers then they are happy and I am too!

 

[Black Coos]

I think it starts with Genetic, continues with good feed and clean water, There shots and worming, salt and the right minerals..I also think that protein tubs will hell make up for poorer quality hay..

In years of bad drought , all thing equal , my calving rate falls off bad. Probly because of the general poor quality grass and Hay.. My cattle has been on the same ground for many years, I think my mineral needs , when I was frist starting, was not that important. I believe now that everything works together..

 

[robert]

wasn't sure whether to revive this topic or not but here goes, as of this evening we have our first cows returning to estrus post partum, one is a 9 yr old raising twin bulls born on 12/29/10 the other a 2yr old raising a bull calf born on 12/27/10, these cows are on just first cut hay, no mineral or supplements, just sayin'

 

[TexasBred]

wasn't sure whether to revive this topic or not but here goes, as of this evening we have our first cows returning to estrus post partum, one is a 9 yr old raising twin bulls born on 12/29/10 the other a 2yr old raising a bull calf born on 12/27/10, these cows are on just first cut hay, no mineral or supplements, just sayin'

Robert...sounds like the ladies are working for you as they should. I'd think you are one "Happy Camper".

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Robert is almost ALWAYS a happy camper!! :clap:

 

[Stocker Steve]

The short answer is that the only way you are going to have a more fertile and more productive herd is to cull all cows raising poor calves and also cull all cows not calving within the expected time frame regardless of how good the calf looked at weaning. How much supplement you give is up to you, but like Robert i give nothing, but that will ultimately decide how hard you're going to cull in those initial years.

I bought a few too many discounted cows while expanding and have high expectations - - so I am culling about 25% per year. Almost all are sold as (late) bred cows. A trailer can fix any fertility or performance issue. :banana:
The wf cross heifers I am holding back look really really really good. Time will tell. I know the economics are marginal but I am retaining about 1/3 of my heifers, and putting a Limi bull on some of these F1s starting this year.
I do not think purchased mineral is worth the price, but we mix our own low cost blend and have better hair coats to show for it. I plan to try foliar feeding this summer.

 

[Brandonm22]

Robert and Ala, that sounds like an exellent seedstock philosahy(too big a word for a plumber to spwll). But, Robert what happens to the seedstock when they are sold and supplied minerals. Is it the same problems that others have by not buying bulls raised the way they are gonna' use them? As an example, a bull raised on bermuda grass, will die on enphodyte fescue, will it go the other way also? gs

No, animals that are susceptible to the endophyte have raised body temperature.....essentially they are showing symptoms of a low grade fever for extended periods of time lasting even months. A bull with low susceptibility to the endophyte is going to just be another animal on bermudagrass. His high tolerance for the effects of the endophyte fungus is not going to harm him in a bermudagrass or bahiagrass field. In fact if he was healthy and in good condition on Ky 31 fescue, he ought to look even better when moved to summer forages.