How do you use EPD information in the procurement process?

[Conagher]

Interested in how everyone (those that do) uses EPD information, either in buying replacement heifers, commercial herd bulls, or clean-up bulls?

Some seem to care about only a couple, BW & WW for example - which are your care-abouts?

Others use a formula made up of several to calculate a total score - do you have a formula? Which EPD information to you use in your formula and are they weighted? Do you have a minimum score?

How much importance do you give to EPD vs. physical characteristics vs. bloodline vs. genetics?

Thanks!

 

[dun]

If you really want to open this can of worms, here goes:

Bulls are a relatively simple deal for us since we do all AI. We use meat bulls and heifer maker bulls.
Meat bulls have to have low BW/high calving ease, moderate WW and YW, high REA and IMF and low backfat. Moderate WW/YW for us is no lower then the breed average and more then around 10-15% over. Our forage base won;t support cows with the high milk that's required to but the extra weight on those exceptionally high WW calves. Without creep it's strictly up to genetics, the cow and pasture to do the job.
More heifer makers the BW, WW, and YW plus calving ease and maternal calving, everything else is basically the same as heifers.

Replacements is another story. We won;t retain from our herd any heifers that we wouldn;t be willing to buy. But that's another issue.
When buying heifers that have EPDs if there is a large selection (multiple hundreds) we use loading factors but I can;t find the spread sheet and since we don;t attend those kinds of sales anymore so for us it's kind of academic.
Heifers have to be no more then 10% over the breed average for actual BW and must have an EPD no greater then the breed average. Calving ease and maternal calving ease EPDs haveto be above breed average, milk no more then 10% over breed average, stayabliity at or above breed average and carcass no more then 10% below breed average for any trait. If pelvic measurements are available a minimum of 168 and no more then 185.
Then disposition and finally comes the physical appraisal, height, feet and legs, top line, width and length, heart girth and barrel.
One thing that we've never been concerned with before but has reared it's ugly head this year is how they were developed and to a lesser degree what type of pasture, i.e. fescue, prairie grass, whatever they were raised on.
For any of the breeds that we would buy or retain there are other breed oriented factors.
That all said, this year I bought a heifer that I didn;t want because my wife fell for the pretty face.

dun

 

[Conagher]

GREAT response dun, thank you!

 

[1848]

Dun's right. This may open a can of worms! Wish I had the time right now to write my book.. :lol: Guess it will have to wait until later.

 

[Chuckie]

I'll second the "Great Reply" from Dun. Conager, you must have ESP, I was going to ask a question pretty close to what you asked.

 

[El_Putzo]

Just finished reading the following link and thought it applies well here. It's quite long but I found it very interesting!

http://www.wnhbulls.com/WNH_WEB6.HTM

 

[Conagher]

El_Putzo, nice article and really addresses my purpose of this posting. My goal is to develop a herd that has ALL EPD's in the top 10% for the breed, because "theoretically" this would be as good as it gets - right?

Chuckie, no ESP. I hear a lot about using EPD's as a tool but very little on how others actually put that tool to use.

dun/1848 - just interested in how everyone is using the tool, no judgement on my part whether they are using it right or wrong - so hopefully the worms can stay in the can and only come out to bait a fish hook!

Thanks for everyone's replies!

 

[1848]

Interested in how everyone (those that do) uses EPD information, either in buying replacement heifers, commercial herd bulls, or clean-up bulls?

Here's my fluff.

Everybody has a method to their madness, and their own way of interpreting EPD's. I use it as "one" tool in my selection of animals. I will not buy an animal soley based on EPD values alone! There are some sorry looking calves out there with great EPD's, and some outstanding specimans with sorry EPD's. I try to look at the whole picture. ie: The environment, the operation or ranch, the management program, the type/size contemporary group reported in, the sire, dam, son's, daughters, siblings, and the actual phenotype of the individual. This helps in my selection, and allows me to place poorer EPD's animals to work in my herd, make adjustments with matings and get excellent performance results. I would rather have a good looking calf to sell with not so good EPD's then try to push a dink with outstanding EPD's. Fortunately, I have the ability to look at the reported performance data on all the parents in the line of a given animal, so I know if the EPD's are within reasonable accuracy, or are based on just years of carry down, so this also helps in my selection.

Some seem to care about only a couple, BW & WW for example - which are your care-abouts?

I don't choose cattle soley based on one EPD value, as all EPD's interelate with one another. Ex: High WW may be a sign of high BW, despite a low BW EPD, or it could be directly attributed to his mothers ability to milk. Low spread between WW and YW would indicate a calf may not have good inidividual growth once it is pulled off the mothers teat! Yet, low BW to high YW ( or a reasonable spread) indicates a solid performance through and beyond weaning. I look at CEM and CED as a more acurate indication of calving ease, over just BW EPD, as BW will vary gratly from herd to herd. As far as Carcass data, I like to see above average in at least one of these, especially IMF, since carcass can be highy inheritable, and it is easy to breed into the next generations, but it is not necessary. Carcass will not out weigh the more basic EPD values for me, but I do like to see some carcass data being collected in an animals immediate family.

Others use a formula made up of several to calculate a total score - do you have a formula? Which EPD information to you use in your formula and are they weighted? Do you have a minimum score?

I think studying the individual animal, it's line, the operation the individual came from, and it's individual characteristics you will be far better off then using a calculation of #'s. Maybe I should come up with a formula based on what I think is important! Giving other traits, and not just EPD numbers a weighted value...naw...that's just more silly paperwork! :lol:

How much importance do you give to EPD vs. physical characteristics vs. bloodline vs. genetics?

I kinda covered that above, but... I will usually weigh the later over just what the EPD's say. Proven animals that work do not always overcome bad EPD's on paper in their lifetime. So I won't just look at the EPD's and expect greatness. Not that I don't trust EPD's or don't see the value in them, it's just that numbers are numbers and they can be easily manipulated.

El_Putzo, nice article and really addresses my purpose of this posting. My goal is to develop a herd that has ALL EPD's in the top 10% for the breed, because "theoretically" this would be as good as it gets - right?

You will find it hard to get all your animals in the top 10% of the breed! Oh you can buy them with those EPD's upfront, and even breed them with those EPD's, but sooner or later all the EPD's in you herd will make adjustments based on your reporting (if you report performance) and some of those top 10% EPD animals will be average of below EPD animals. They all can't stay top 10% when they are compared with one another...know what I mean.. ;-) Somebody will always rise to the top (maybe to be in the top 2%) and the others will fall in behind.

 

[Brandonm2]

El_Putzo, nice article and really addresses my purpose of this posting. My goal is to develop a herd that has ALL EPD's in the top 10% for the breed, because "theoretically" this would be as good as it gets - right?

You will find it hard to get all your animals in the top 10% of the breed! Oh you can buy them with those EPD's upfront, and even breed them with those EPD's, but sooner or later all the EPD's in you herd will make adjustments based on your reporting (if you report performance) and some of those top 10% EPD animals will be average of below EPD animals. They all can't stay top 10% when they are compared with one another...know what I mean.. ;-) Somebody will always rise to the top (maybe to be in the top 2%) and the others will fall in behind.

I agree that a herd in the top 10% is a lofty goal, but if he wants too achieve it, I think he has to purchase animals that are already there, cull the bottom quarter of his cow herd periodically, and use semen from only the top 2 to 5% of the breed. If he buys AVERAGE cattle (even if they outperform the EPD) those numbers aren't going to change THAT much in the cow's career. Likewise a good bull, once he has 50-100 calves in the database from 10 different herds, is not going to statistically change too much in any direction. Outliers in the statisitcs tend to fall back to the pack; but are more likely to remain where they are at; than an animal in the pack is likely to become a trait leader.

I do question the goal. If you are breeding Simmentals (for an extreme example) a cow in the top 10% of the breed for growth AND milk is probably going to be an 80s style frame score 8 or 9 moose that requires the feed of two cows every winter and milks enough that some dairies could find her useful so unless your are REALLY pouring the grain to them, getting them to breed back regularly could be a challenge and I think it is probably impossible to assemble a herd of cows in many breeds that are in the top 10% for low birthweight AND the top 10% for both yearling wt and milk. I think his goal IS achievable though it would not be a goal I would want to pursue.

 

[Conagher]

1848 and Brandonm2 - great input, I appreciate your responses.

Brandonm2 - questioning my goal of top 10% in EPD's is valid input. (I question it as well). But I hear a lot about uniformity, buy quality vs. quanity, and save the best - sell the rest. So, that would translate into a goal of: Uniform herd of the best quality. However, that brings us to a critical definition: What is "best quality"? Well, the breed associations have attempted to define that with the EPD's. So, again "theoretically", a uniform herd of the best quality would equate to a herd with all EPD's in the top %. I realize this would only be a certain point in time and to maintain that would require continuous culling and upgrading.

Now, I realize I'm being a bit naive here. But from a beef production perspective we hear the customer wants more consistant quality - thus uniformity of the best quality in our herds; which suggests all beef producers should have the same goal.

Thanks!

 

[MikeC]

EPD's are just another tool to be used in conjunction with visual appeal, muscling, fertility, to name a few.

Use EPD's to add desirable traits to your target market.

Unfortunately, many of the commercial bull buyers that come by here to look at bulls will buy the biggest bull in the pen.
Instead of asking for BW EPD's, they ask for the birthweight of a bull. WRONG!

 

[dph]

Something to remember: Fred Johnson of Summitcrest Angus, one of two driving forces behind the CAB program and a hell of a good man, asked me once, "What's the most important part of a pedigree?" I couldn't come up with anything. Fred replied,"The name at the top, because if you can't believe that, any number that comes after it doesn't mean a damn thing." That has to be one of my all time favorite quotes.

As far as EPDs, we personally use them maybe a little two much. A guy this year tolds me these catalogs are hurting things a little bit. He thought what a fellow should do was pick out 6-7 bulls he liked that he thought would be in his price range without even opening the catalog, the picking from those 6-7 bulls using EPDs. He thought the numbers sometimes affects how we see the bull. I think he might be on to something. The birth and calving ease EPDs, however, are two numbers that do seem to dictate what bull will or won't work. Then we try to shoot for the others in the top 10-20%.

 

[dun]

Something to remember about the top 10% is those are the heaviest weaning and yearling calves that takes a lot of milk and feed. The cow in the top 10% is also going to milk way too heavy for most pasture/range environments. If you have to feed a cow she's not going to be much of a money maker.
Extremes are the dog that so many of the breeds chased years ago and when they caught it they realized they had gotten bitten.
Balance is a goal that may not sound near as geewhiz as the 1op X%, but the cattle will be just as uniform, take less feed and no elephant sized equipment is required to handle them.

dun

 

[MikeC]

Something to remember about the top 10% is those are the heaviest weaning and yearling calves that takes a lot of milk and feed. The cow in the top 10% is also going to milk way too heavy for most pasture/range environments. If you have to feed a cow she's not going to be much of a money maker.
Extremes are the dog that so many of the breeds chased years ago and when they caught it they realized they had gotten bitten.
Balance is a goal that may not sound near as geewhiz as the 1op X%, but the cattle will be just as uniform, take less feed and no elephant sized equipment is required to handle them.

dun

But because of the low accuracy in a virgin bulls EPD's, (which ever trait you choose) many had rather choose in the top 10% so that they are assured (more or less) that an EPD will result in at least the top 50%.
Using "progeny proven" bulls is most times not an option for those that don't AI.
Some say it's a case of the tail chasing the dog.

 

[1848]

What is "best quality"? Well, the breed associations have attempted to define that with the EPD's. So, again "theoretically", a uniform herd of the best quality would equate to a herd with all EPD's in the top %.

Don't make the mistake of confusing quality with efficiency. I think the EPD's are a tool which gives more of an indication of efficiency and trends within certain traits, and they are dependent on herd reporting and how the cattle are managed. The quality is up to the breeder! The breed assoc's just reflect the "data" given by breeders through comparison. It does not guarantee quality...but it can help with consistency!

I realize this would only be a certain point in time and to maintain that would require continuous culling and upgrading.

Exactly, having an entire herd with EPD's in the top 10% is only temporary, especially in a herd which is kept for an extended period of time and reported on together. As I indicated earlier. you can buy the top EPD's, and you can breed for them, and then you can eliminate the ones that don't keep up, but there will always have to be cattle in your herd that will be average or below average, even if you keep "upgrading"! Remember, if you chase EPD's only, you will pass up allot of good functional cattle on the way. Great EPD's sell, but putting all your eggs in one basket?.......well!

If he buys AVERAGE cattle (even if they outperform the EPD) those numbers aren't going to change THAT much in the cow's career.

I disagree. I have seen many cattle in and out of my herd that have changed dramatically in certain EPD traits when compared in contemparary groups. Some of those average cattle consistently out perform the good EPD'd cattle, and it does reflect directly in the progeny's EPD's.

Unfortunately, many of the commercial bull buyers that come by here to look at bulls will buy the biggest bull in the pen. Instead of asking for BW EPD's, they ask for the birthweight of a bull. WRONG!

Commercial bull buyer usually want pounds, and they want their bull to look good... As far as wanting to know the BW of the bull? Many cattleman use this as an estimate of his potential calves, which genetically speaking is pefectly acceptable and many times fairly accurate.

"What's the most important part of a pedigree?" I couldn't come up with anything. Fred replied,"The name at the top, because if you can't believe that, any number that comes after it doesn't mean a damn thing."

Amen!

But because of the low accuracy in a virgin bulls EPD's, (which ever trait you choose) many had rather choose in the top 10% so that they are assured (more or less) that an EPD will result in at least the top 50%. Using "progeny proven" bulls is most times not an option for those that don't AI.
Some say it's a case of the tail chasing the dog.

Not as much an EPD in the top 50% to look good, as it is the guarantee that the EPD (s) selected for will be more accurate. If you get a good bull and you know he is good, then keeping that bull and reporting his offspring to prove him will only benefit your program, and keep you from chasing AI bulls.

 

[Conagher]

1848 - you make some good points.

The Quality vs. Efficiency point is interesting, and I can see the point you are making. However, are we not also representing quality in the EPD's? Take "Milk" for example, someone decided a higher milk score is better than a lower milk score, yet based on dun's original reply on forage vs. milk we really consider this efficiency? Maybe this one is an outlier, but I think we do quantify the EPD's as good and bad, which infers a quality measure.

Thanks!

 

[ollie]

Someone needs to go wake Frankie up. She is missing out.

 

[1848]

Someone needs to go wake Frankie up. She is missing out.

:lol: Don't worry! I could flush her out with a few choice words!... ;-)

The Quality vs. Efficiency point is interesting, and I can see the point you are making. However, are we not also representing quality in the EPD's? Take "Milk" for example, someone decided a higher milk score is better than a lower milk score, yet based on dun's original reply on forage vs. milk we really consider this efficiency? Maybe this one is an outlier, but I think we do quantify the EPD's as good and bad, which infers a quality measure.

Good question! Are we representing quality in EPD's? I think that is for the individual breeder to answer when he selects his stock, and accurately reports the data on his herd. Big is not always better, (as Dun has pointed out), and more is not always quality, it is just quanity. A higher milk score is not any "better" than an average milk score if you don't need the milk! Ex: If you already have sufficient milk in your animals than it is not necessary to add more (excess) in your breeding decisions for the sake of numbers, and if you keep stacking high milk to get the top 10%, it may lead to high maintenance animals, with fertility problems instead of more lbs at weaning, so where are you gaining overall? Ever heard of a paper tiger? You might have great EPD's but you are feeding out the wazoo, and/or getting a calf once every other year, or you're dealing with pendoulous udders, or with mastitis problems and sorry teats! Where is the quality there?

You're right in that many breeders do quantify EPD's as good and bad, but calling EPD's good and bad "quality" is a mistake. EPD's help breeding decisions, and show trends. Every breeder is eager to breed their cattle to hit all the bases in their EPD values for the sake of marketing on paper, but it dosn't mean they are hitting all the bases in the pasture. You create top cattle by selection and reporting. The EPD's will fall into place based on this.

 

[1848]

Sorry, had to come back to finish..got busy.

Conagher, I do think you're right when it comes to the carcass EPD' s however. We can use those as an indication of the actual "quality" of carcass, as IMF, backfat and ribeye are indicators, and they can be objectively measured.

 

[tapeworm]

I use epds to decide what I want to look at..or more important what I DONT need to waste my time looking at. bw ww yw have been most important to me over the years but I admit I need to start focusing more on carcass traits. Even though I look at epds Im a sucker for phenotype...show me a good stout long bodied deep ribbed bull and I may take him home with me


But all thosenumbers..and actual weights to...are only as good as the word of the folks you do business with and everbody else that runs that line that adds to the information. If I think I cant trust somebody I dont give a damn what you tell me his numbers are..Ill go somewhere else