Heifer pic your thoughts

[KNERSIE]

Knersie, if I didn't say "reasonable BW" then I meant to. We don't need 6-7 BW's. However, I also don't think that negative BW or even those in the 0 are needed either. I am happy keeping my BW's between 3-5. I don't think we need to go any lower then that, maybe we should put more focus on CED rather then the BW. I will breed my heifers to a 3.5 BW bull with a negative CED. There are Low BW bulls out there with higher CED EPD's.

I agree we shouldn't go overboard in the other direction either, but there are more things to consider. Hereford bulls are used primarily to add maternal power in crossbreeding systems, ie to breed replacement heifers that will be crossed to terminal bulls as mature cows. If the commercial guy unknowingly stack BW in his cow herd the added BW from the terminal bull might just be too much BW and as soon as you start losing calves at birth the added weight at weaning will soon be irrelevant.

Also bear in mind that you'll have all sorts of customers with an even wider variety of cows, cows that might not be able to handle higher BW. The surest way to never have a return customer is to have only one that spread the word that your bulls are hard calving. I'm afraid exactly that has happened for the breed.

I refuse to give up performance for low BW and high IMF, I don't think our cows need to be bred to negative BW bulls. In the end all it does is takes pounds away from your weaning weights. Cows should be able to have 80-90lb calves. These type of calves will typically push more weight across the scales. I guess this is why I never have understood why commercial cattleman would use a typical heifer bull on their mature cow herd.

No need to give anything up, the art lies in balancing the traits.

Us purebred breeders ( me included) often get so excited about performance that we lose track of the job our bulls need to do in the commercial industry. Only a very small percentage of registered bulls ends up being sold to other registered breeders.

I heard a reputable commercial man once say that he wants the cows to have the biggest possible calf at birth that she can stand, because usually that equates to 50-75lbs more across the scales come weaning.

That's the thing with an opinion, its like a hammerhoid, every arse has got one. Most of my bull customers seriously lack in stockmanship skills not even to mention real cattle knowledge. I have to cater for them as well, if I start selling terminal bulls to people who's cows can't handle them and who didn't have the knowledge to understand what they were risking, I'll soon eliminate a big portion of my bull market.

Not every breed needs to do it all, we must focus on what made herefords popular in the first place and just refine that and improve on the weaker areas. If we want terminal performance we better be able to handle the negatives that comes with that as well as convince the bull buyers why they should buy herefords to do what they used continental bulls for for the last 30 years.

 

[dun]

I'm still trying to find out why you would want a negative CED.

 

[Ned Jr.]

I'm still trying to find out why you would want a negative CED.

I was wondering the same thing. Hopefully oakcreek just explained it wrong or he may be a little busy come calving season. :lol2:

 

[oakcreekfarms]

You are right, I said the opposite of what I meant. I was rushing to get into my deer stand and made no sense what so ever.

Knersie, I agree that balance trait selection is key. I just notice a bunch of people jumping on the low BW high IMF band wagon. I don't think that is where need to be, nor do I believe we need 7 BW epd's and mature cows that weigh 2000lbs

 

[HerefordSire]

In my opinion, the dark red color adds a ton of value. She appears to be very dark red.

Okay she is "dark" red..... not a good enough pic? I'm looking for Phenotype thoughts. I also disagree with an animals value being judged on how dark she is.... maybe to novice breeders she's worth more... if she was yellow she wouldn't be in the herd. If you don't like her tell me why, I'm looking for an education.

But I thank you for the comment.
Alan

You are very welcome. The photo was very good. I think you are sitting on a valuable animal. I don't care for the white on her left rear leg though and eye pigment appears to be lacking. Others may say she may be hard doing because of Call's very low FAT EPD number. Is she hard doing?

 

[HerefordSire]

Knersie, if I didn't say "reasonable BW" then I meant to. We don't need 6-7 BW's. However, I also don't think that negative BW or even those in the 0 are needed either. I am happy keeping my BW's between 3-5. I don't think we need to go any lower then that, maybe we should put more focus on CED rather then the BW. I will breed my heifers to a 3.5 BW bull with a negative CED. There are Low BW bulls out there with higher CED EPD's.

I refuse to give up performance for low BW and high IMF, I don't think our cows need to be bred to negative BW bulls. In the end all it does is takes pounds away from your weaning weights. Cows should be able to have 80-90lb calves. These type of calves will typically push more weight across the scales. I guess this is why I never have understood why commercial cattleman would use a typical heifer bull on their mature cow herd.

I heard a reputable commercial man once say that he wants the cows to have the biggest possible calf at birth that she can stand, because usually that equates to 50-75lbs more across the scales come weaning.

Generally speaking, I can understand how an extra low BW can take away from performance. Can you explain why a high IMF takes away from performance?

 

[RafterD]

Generally speaking, I can understand how an extra low BW can take away from performance. Can you explain why a high IMF takes away from performance?[/quote]

Again, since I am not familiar with current hereford genetics and epd's so I may be speaking a little out of place. What I have seen with many but not all of the high IMF genetics in Angus is that certain lines tend to be pinched in their flank and generally lacking some capacity. For sure these traits can be equated to harder doing and less fertile cows. Those cows tend to produce barrel bodied calves that normally don't perform as well as some with more capacity. However, I am not aware of any research studies that have even tried to equate a relationship between high IMF and poor performance. One of the highest IMF ranked Angus bulls show the exact phenotypical defect in my opinion that I described above and consistently throws that same trait in his calves. However, after many thousands of registrations from nearly 1000 different herds, his calves weaning and yearling weights are still in the top 20% while the IMF epds of those calves continues to improve. This would tend to not support any correlation between IMF and performance at least in Angus.