gun question for mikec and others

[kjones]

There seems to be a lot of negativity about the the .223. I am wondering if the people posting about it have any experience with it, and are aware of how that particular round acts upon impact. I know that this round tumbles when it hits and does a lot of damage. It is also quite accurate, even out over three hundred yards. I'm not saying it is suitable for large deer at long distances, but for the smaller deer at a reasonable range it will certainly do the job. Energy retention would be my concern with a bullet of this light of weight, and that would be a limiting factor in distance for hunting.

 

[AngusLimoX]

There seems to be a lot of negativity about the the .223. It is a GREAT round, for varmints. And lightly armoured personnel.

I am wondering if the people posting about it have any experience with it, and are aware of how that particular round acts upon impact. Where I got my experience with it we called it 5.56 NATO.

I know that this round tumbles when it hits and does a lot of damage. In FMJ or hunting? Ever see an ammunition manufacturer tout this feature? :lol:

It is also quite accurate, even out over three hundred yards.Very accurate, as a good varmint round should be. But the limiting factor for vamints is the wind, because those little bullets will move a fair bit in a light breeze.

I'm not saying it is suitable for large deer at long distances, but for the smaller deer at a reasonable range it will certainly do the job. Do the job usually, or a dependable and responsible choice for a novice hunting deer. In a survival situation of course it will take deer, that's not what we are discussing here.

Energy retention would be my concern with a bullet of this light of weight, and that would be a limiting factor in distance for hunting.What about penetration,energy transfer, frangibility(mass retention,like breaking up when striking bone ) , deflection etc...,

I like backhoes suggestion, depending on the ranges involved. Always wanted a 20ga, just never happened.

Never fired a .44 Mag in a rifle like CB suggested but I actually didn't mind fairly hot loads in a handgun so that is likely a neat choice depending on expected hunting ranges as well.

( Drooled over those Ruger .44 carbines a lot, never got one of those either, feeling deprived tonight ). :lol:

 

[kjones]

AngusLimoX. I got my experience with the .223 in the same place, and I did have the opportunity to examine these rounds after they had been fired and recovered. I refer to them as a .223 because that is what most people know them as. And no manufacturers don't tout the fact that they tumble, but does that mean it doesnt? It has been my experience that they do. The issues about penetration, energy transfer, frangibility, deflection etc. are in line with those of energy retention. Where I live the deer aren't large, and A good varmint rifle is as capable as a large caliber rifle. Most people here use a rifle larger than needed. This seems to be one of those " yea well mine is bigger than yours" type of things.

 

[AngusLimoX]

A good varmint rifle is as capable as a large caliber rifle.

Gotta disagree with the above.

When I first took my .300 win mag into deer camp the boys asked what the heck I needed the elephant gun for. I looked at a guy who uses a 30-30 and told him his rifle fired bigger rounds than mine. Had to get a cartridge box out and show him his bullets weighed 174 grains, and mine 150.

So the next hour or so was spent explaining the advantages of my 150 grain projectile going 3200fps over his going 2300fps. Near the end of our talk my speach was pretty slurred and I was having difficulty with numbers so I gave up. ( Something about the first night in deer camp :lol: ). The .300 got called the elephant gun from then on.

But the deer never knew it was an elephant gun, there was no inordinate destruction of meat, and never more than one round was fired at over 23 deer in this camp. Some kills were over 400yds, most over 200. They put me in spots they never put anyone before because they realized those types of shots were reasonable for that rifle.( I am not bragging marksmanship here, the weapon and scope made it pretty easy to shoot standing/walking deer that have no clue you are out there ).

As a brush buster - I'd put the .300 up against just about anything else, especially with a 190 - 220 grain spire point. Ballistic stability and energy in spades.

Do I recommend a calibre like this to a child or novice - nope, especially if you are going to heavier bullets and hot loads. ( Although, if you were a reloader, you could start them out with some pretty tame but effective loads ). I would never recommend less than 100 grains for deer, and always in a large game designed bullet.

It isn't that mine is bigger, ( although it is :lol: ), it is that mine is more effective, more versatile, and humane.

 

[Rangenerd]

I would get them a gun that is big enough to work when your kids gets older. Your kids are young now but they are going to be teens and adults before you are ready for it. Besides, when they are shooting at something other than a target they will not feel any recoil.

 

[fit2btied]

Near the end of our talk my speach was pretty slurred and I was having difficulty with numbers so I gave up. ( Something about the first night in deer camp :lol: ).

I'm glad to see you put a smiley after your statement. While deer hunting a few years back, we ran across a couple guys who were still under the influence of the first night of deer camp. They said they hadn't even seen a doe. We said we had heard someone shooting in the general direction they had came from about a half hour earlier. They said "Oh yeah, that was us, but it was just at some geese that were flying over." That was the last time I hunted on Nat'l Forest Service land!

 

[oscar p]

I would get them a gun that is big enough to work when your kids gets older. Your kids are young now but they are going to be teens and adults before you are ready for it. Besides, when they are shooting at something other than a target they will not feel any recoil.

YOU GO BOY!!!!!!!!!

 

[AngusLimoX]

Near the end of our talk my speach was pretty slurred and I was having difficulty with numbers so I gave up. ( Something about the first night in deer camp :lol: ).

I'm glad to see you put a smiley after your statement.

Probably giving the wrong impression on the internet - we had very strict rules about liquor and firearms. When the booze came out the guns stayed locked up. If you overdid it, you stayed in camp. If you had more than a beer with lunch you stayed in camp.

But I am not gonna be self righteous about it either, nobody discouraged you from having a drink, just leave the guns alone when you did.You would hope that these days that is the accepted policy with most hunting groups or individuals.

 

[fit2btied]

Being about an hour from St. Louis, MO, we have a lot more 'all hat' hunters than we do cowboys! It's unbelievable how many city people can see a story about opening day on the news, head for WallyWorld, buy their first gun and all the necessities like sleeping bags, tent, gas BBQ grill, air mattress and 12-volt compressor (So that's why the car battery is dead! ), kerosene heater, power generator if the store sells them, etc. Then they get their groceries and beverages, head for the woods, start the party, wake up cold around noon the next day and start packing up to go home. Man, I could buy and feed out a steer for less than what some of them spend! I didn't intend for it to appear that I was putting you in that group. Like you said, on the internet, it's easy to get your tang tongueld. When I type it, I know what I mean. When other people read it, they can only read it and interpret it.

Disclaimer: Not meant to offend all city folk - only those I saw in WallyWorld!

 

[AngusLimoX]

Like you said, on the internet, it's easy to get your tang tongueld. When I type it, I know what I mean. When other people read it, they can only read it and interpret it.

My fault for not making it clear, especially in a thread that started out about young ones getting their first guns. Booze/drugs and guns don't mix. Period.

Every year around here somebody blasts their buddy or a family member, I often wonder how many times booze is involved.

*** Nothing in the foregoing post refers to any person living , dead , or wounded in the face that was hunting with a politician buddy in Texas ***

 

[MikeC]

Mike,
You are full of it. You have seen 100's of deer taken with it. I seriously doubt that. I have been hunting my entire life, and havent seen more than maybe 20 deer taken in total. What do you do sit up on a hill and watch other people shoot all day? I am sure you could wack Alabama deer with a .223 they are the size of rabbits.....

If you have been hunting all your life and have seen only 20 deer taken, you are not qualified to be in a deer hunting discussion anyway.

Back when soybeans (1970's) were being grown everywhere here and the fish and game were giving permits for shooting deer at night (still available), sometimes 2-3 trucks of guys would kill over a 100 in one night!

Back then those "Bean eating" deer could weigh 250-300 lbs.

:roll:

 

[aplusmnt]

Mike,
You are full of it. You have seen 100's of deer taken with it. I seriously doubt that. I have been hunting my entire life, and havent seen more than maybe 20 deer taken in total. What do you do sit up on a hill and watch other people shoot all day? I am sure you could wack Alabama deer with a .223 they are the size of rabbits.....

If you have been hunting all your life and have seen only 20 deer taken, you are not qualified to be in a deer hunting discussion anyway.

Back when soybeans (1970's) were being grown everywhere here and the fish and game were giving permits for shooting deer at night (still available), sometimes 2-3 trucks of guys would kill over a 100 in one night!

Back then those "Bean eating" deer could weigh 250-300 lbs.

:roll:

What would they do with the deer? Where they just disposing of them or harvesting the meat also? That is a bunch of deer meat.

 

[MikeC]

Mike,
You are full of it. You have seen 100's of deer taken with it. I seriously doubt that. I have been hunting my entire life, and havent seen more than maybe 20 deer taken in total. What do you do sit up on a hill and watch other people shoot all day? I am sure you could wack Alabama deer with a .223 they are the size of rabbits.....

If you have been hunting all your life and have seen only 20 deer taken, you are not qualified to be in a deer hunting discussion anyway.

Back when soybeans (1970's) were being grown everywhere here and the fish and game were giving permits for shooting deer at night (still available), sometimes 2-3 trucks of guys would kill over a 100 in one night!

Back then those "Bean eating" deer could weigh 250-300 lbs.

:roll:

What would they do with the deer? Where they just disposing of them or harvesting the meat also? That is a bunch of deer meat.

The deer meat would go to the "Boys Ranch", an orphanage run by the Alabama Sherriffs Association.

They built walk-in coolers and rented some in some areas because it was during the hot part of the year. Backstraps, tenderloins, and hindquarters were the only parts used.

The permits have changed quite a bit now though. You can only drag them to the edge of the field. Deer bones tend to be bad on tractor tires.

Never done it myself, but a lot of guys would gut shoot the deer so they would run in the woods and die. Not a good practice but they were that much of a pest.

No soybeans grown around here now. That was back in the day of the $10 per bushel prices.

 

[curtis]

Mike C, Brady K from FT. Deposit killed 185 one weekend on a culling operation.

 

[MikeC]

Mike C, Brady K from FT. Deposit killed 185 one weekend on a culling operation.

I think I heard about that. That was down around Union Springs I think. That was done during the day too!

Haven't seen Brady in a while. Might go by this week with some adult beverages and help make bullets. :lol:

 

[Angus Cattle Shower]

I say a .243, nothing buigger, nthing smaller. I dont think that they'd outgrow it very fast either.

My first gun is a Remington 7600 .30-06, big enough for moose and elk and yet it is small enough for deer, and it is one heck of a coyote gun too!

 

[curtis]

Mike C, Brady K from FT. Deposit killed 185 one weekend on a culling operation.

I think I heard about that. That was down around Union Springs I think. That was done during the day too!

Haven't seen Brady in a while. Might go by this week with some adult

beverages and help make bullets. :lol:

Brady would certainly appreciate the adult beverages an he knows what to do with it, i gave him a fifth of wild turkey one time to save for a special occasion, that nite he was in it knee deep, said every day is special.

 

[hkj]

DO NOT use a .223 on deer way too small!! No short mags for kids. The .243 win, .308 win, 6.5 swedish and 7mm-08, 30/30, 44mag rile, are great kid rounds. They can also do double duty as a varmint caliber. The .243 is based off of the .308 win case just necked down to 6mm (.243 in). If you know someone you trust to reload ammo you can customize the ammo to your rifle and shooter. For the .243 Barns makes an 85gr bullet that may be factory loaded by one of the major manufactures. If you can't find the Barns factory loaded go no lower than 90grs and do not shoot the Nosler Balistic Tips (BT). The BT's are a great bullet but in .243 I have seen them fail on one shot kills. Federal has ammo loaded with the Nosler Accubond great bullet one shot one kill. The .308 with a non-varmint bullet from 120-150gr will be more than enough on deer and not hurt the kids with recoil. The 6.5 swedish may not be found at Wally World (WW) but should be at most gun and ammo stores and places like Cabelas, Gander Mountain and Sportsmens Warehouse. The 7mm-08 Rem should be found at most stores to include WW. I would not buy a synthedic stock rifle for a young child because recoil will be felt more. Someone mentioned the Handi Rifles, great kids gun and the gun can grow with the child all the way to adulthood. The most import things to remember are.

Saftey
The rifle fits the child
The Caliber fits the child and shooting conditons i.e. thick brush, long range
The bullet construction is designed for the task
Practice, Practice, Practice

 

[BAGTIC]

KANSAS,

The two most popular calibers sold around here are the .243 and the .223. Lots of youngers and women use the .223 successfully. I started hunting 48 years ago in California with a .222. If you put the bullet in the chest/lung area it is usually a one shot gun. If you can't hit the chest you shouldn't be shooting.

 

[BAGTIC]

.

Irresponsible weapons choice is the reason laws have been made in some locales to mandate what you can carry for deer.

55 or 60 grains isn't enough. And I say so.

Weapons limits are made by politicians, many of whom don't know the breech of a gun from the muzzle.

If the rules were based on facts instead of uninformed opoinions the rules would be the same everywhere. Physics, biology, etc. do not vary from state to state or from county to county.