Greg Judy and Profit per Acre

[FungusProudKY31]

Taking a ratio of the cow weight and calf weaning weight has always made sense to me, to select for cows that wean a larger percent of their own weight. I think that gives you a good number to compare cows to each other. The downside is, you will eventually be selecting for a higher milking cow. How much more does a higher milking cow eat than a lower milking cow? Do they just eat more when they are milking or is it all year round? I am sure someplace has (maybe) done research on that.

This always selects for a small framed cow, too. I call it a self-fulfilled prophesy where you know the outcome when you make the prediction.

Milk quality is only one option. The growth curve for cattle is different. Curvebenders seem to never quit putting on mature weight and size as one extreme. Low BW cattle are sometimes frail, thin muscled and frail as the other extreme. The in-between is where to look. Early growth and adequate size and then a leveling off is a profitable choice. AAA EPDs and even the $M Index might guide you to the better options. But the one that all miss is the various qualities of milk. Bonsma sought high %BF as it is less costly to produce than volume and created sizable calves. His indicators, if you care to know, are the degree or orange in the ear wax and tail switch wax. Pick a morning or afternoon, stand with your back to the sun and look at the cows and bulls as they face you. It become obvious very quickly. As the old newspaper standard said "Believe it or Not".

South Polls should be highly efficient as a 4 breed composite; there should be some residual heterosis. But take a dock on the color/white and take another dock on the FS and you're better be doing direct sales or plan to fund having cattle every year from off farm income.

 

[Muletrack]

Greg Judy does long rotations....3 to 4 months or longer. What happens when you do that is your forage gets very mature or rank. He seems to get by with it, but i didn't like it myself. I had very low weaning weights the year i did it. 30 to 45 day rotations work best for me with lots of red clover in the mix.

Some areas will only be grazed once a year, though, a 365-day rest (give or take). There's value in that at times.

 

[KAstocker]

No. $40 per AUM x 12 would give you $480 per year cost.

I guess I turned my brain off for a bit, like when I talk to my wife. That's pretty expensive land. I always thought rental rates come out to $100-$150 per AU per year pretty much anywhere in the country.

 

[RDFF]

Yes 55k and 33k acres. Sorry was distracted when I wrote that.

Normal stocking rate here is 50 acres per cow. This year with the drought it was more like 100 acres per cow. Both his leased ranches were operating with those rates when he took over.

He is running considerably above the typical stocking rate now, and he has improved the ground so much with intensive grazing and moves over the last 20 years that he has increased forage amount and soil quality to a very atypical level for here. He couldn't build dams because of state restrictions so he brought in beavers and now the once small stream has turned into a huge wetlands area that subirrigates a pretty substantial area.

Regenerative ag works wonders when done right. The worse your ground and rainfall the better it works.

LOVE the beaver idea... somewhere along the line they seem to have forgotten that MAN is a part of nature too. A man builds a dam... BAD. Beaver builds a dam... GOOD!

 

[Muletrack]

I'm not advocating for bigger cows, I run 1250lb cows generally. I am definitely for getting the highest weaning weight I can attain through management (crossbreeding, rotational grazing, quality water sources etc) not inputs.

Yes smaller calves are more $ per lb but they don't dollar out per head. I can sell a newborn calf for $400 here in the spring - that's over $4/lb but I'd rather sell them in the fall for about $2/lb (Canadian) when they weigh 600-700lbs because that cow is only calving once a year and I need to bring in more income. As I pointed out earlier those lighter lower $/hd calves have many of the same overhead costs associated with them including the capital cost of a cow spread out over less income, that's less efficient and less profit. It sounds great - just run more cows but it really isn't that simple financially.

All that said - it's a great discussion to have and there's certainly lots to learn from Greg Judy and others like him. The same old ways aren't working for most people that's for sure.

I always like to hear what the Canadians are doing because we have a lot more in common with Manitoba than Missouri. Here in North Dakota the high energy cost is what concerns me about our 1500 lb. cows. Also the high replacement costs when cows don't breed back. I can't see going to a thousand pound cow, but it's getting almost impossible to find animals under 1500 lbs. I'm looking for easy keepers, and take note of the cows that work best for me -- and those aren't often the tall ones. The most important thing for profit is a live calf (which is why I calve in the late summer -- my last calf born this year was Oct. 9, and I start around the second week of August). This year I'm going to cut the breeding season down to 45 days, and hope eventually to make it 30.

 

[Banjo]

Some areas will only be grazed once a year, though, a 365-day rest (give or take). There's value in that at times.

I did that one time on a few acres and wasn't real impressed with the outcome....what i think is better is to flash graze and let them eat the tops but not all the way down....that keeps it in a continual growing mode. You can put them in to an area for only an hour or two instead of all day.

 

[bigbluegrass]

I did that one time on a few acres and wasn't real impressed with the outcome....what i think is better is to flash graze and let them eat the tops but not all the way down....that keeps it in a continual growing mode. You can put them in to an area for only an hour or two instead of all day.

@Banjo I agree with you for KY grazing. However, out in ND they have an annual rainfall of 14". Here, we get 36". A big difference. I think it is Jim Gerrish who has a formula to calculate the number rotations per year with respect to the rainfall. I don't remember the formula, but around here it is something like 5 rotations per year if I remember correctly. With 14" it might only be 1 or 2. They aren't going to have weeds come up like we do, because there is no rain to germinate the weed seeds between rotations!

 

[Dave]

@Banjo I agree with you for KY grazing. However, out in ND they have an annual rainfall of 14". Here, we get 36". A big difference. I think it is Jim Gerrish who has a formula to calculate the number rotations per year with respect to the rainfall. I don't remember the formula, but around here it is something like 5 rotations per year if I remember correctly. With 14" it might only be 1 or 2. They aren't going to have weeds come up like we do, because there is no rain to germinate the weed seeds between rotations!

I am in a 10 inch rainfall area. A lot of western range land is on a 3 year rotation. Year one graze in the spring. Year two graze in the fall. Year three let it rest, no grazing at all.

 

[gitnby]

he also buys all his hay.....not doable here..couldnt afford it even if could find decent hay.

 

[Dave]

he also buys all his hay.....not doable here..couldnt afford it even if could find decent hay.

Once again a regional thing. I quit making hay in 1998. I figured I could buy it cheaper than make it 4 out of 5 years. And I can buy lots hay that is affordable but much better quality than I need.

 

[Stickney94]

Frame score and cow weight are distinct things. I have a jersey cow that is easily a frame score 6 and weighs 1,050. I have an angus cow that is FS 5 that is 1,400+.

I think there are a lot of people that don't weigh or measure and make the assumption that their short cattle are 1,000 lbs when in fact they are much heavier (and probably eat more too).

The scale we purchased two years ago has completely shuffled my ranking of production cows. I'm constantly amazed about how much different weights can be when visually the two animals seem to be very similar in size.

As far as the thread -- know your market. Take tips and advice and apply to your system, use what works, discard what doesn't.

 

[gcreekrch]

I always like to hear what the Canadians are doing because we have a lot more in common with Manitoba than Missouri. Here in North Dakota the high energy cost is what concerns me about our 1500 lb. cows. Also the high replacement costs when cows don't breed back. I can't see going to a thousand pound cow, but it's getting almost impossible to find animals under 1500 lbs. I'm looking for easy keepers, and take note of the cows that work best for me -- and those aren't often the tall ones. The most important thing for profit is a live calf (which is why I calve in the late summer -- my last calf born this year was Oct. 9, and I start around the second week of August). This year I'm going to cut the breeding season down to 45 days, and hope eventually to make it 30.

What part of N Dak. you from? I was born in Fargo. Have family at Raleigh, Lisbon, Mayville, Hope.....

Cows that want to live here rarely weigh 1300 +.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Kit Pharo - haven't heard that name in years. Used to see his name pop up every where. People bought into his program buying his tiny bulls. That faded out quickly. don't know what he is preaching now, but back then he had like 2.5 - 3 frame bulls.

Pharo Cattle Company continues to add cooperator herds and sell more bulls each year. They are trying to leverage the grass fed and direct marketing trends.

The yearling bulls they sell are small, partially because they develop on forage only. If you look at their AI offerings - - most of the popular bulls are 3.5 to 4 frame. I am planning to use 20 units from an extra thick 4 frame PCC bull this summer.

 

[anewcomer]

Let's try to agree on some actual facts. Cow consumption is based on body weight. A 2000 lb. cow does not eat twice what a 1000 lb. cow eats. But, it's close, closer to 2/3s. If you're running 100 1400 lb. cows, you could run 140 1000 lb. cows on the same forage base. Not exactly, but close. Let's assume 100% weaned calf crop and that every cow weans a calf 50% of her body weight. Each hypothetical herd will raise 70,000 lbs. of calf. Which calf crop brings in more money? If we look at data, out of Nebraska I think, the larger the cow, the lower percentage of body weight weaned as cow weight increases. 1000 lb. cows does not mean small or even medium frame calves. If we were to use terminal bulls, the calves would be very acceptable to the sale barn market. Don't even start to argue about the breed up an bigger cows versus smaller cows.

 

[anewcomer]

Muletrack, I am interested in how you came up with your calving season dates. Since a cow needs almost double the DM intake, TDN and CP after calving as she does after weaning, and your cows would be in that condition in very late fall, early winter, how do you keep them in breeding condition in late November, December which would be a 60 day breeding season. Plus, how do you carry a lactating cow thru your winters?

 

[anewcomer]

gitnby, you're point is well taken, even though I don't know where you're located. In the Southeast, where I'm located, you can by hay far below the cost of production. If you factor in the nutrients you bring onto your farm, buying in hay can be quite advantageous. There are certainly parts of the country where rainfall is so scarce that hay is equally scarce. In regards to quality, poor hay plus some protein supplement can be sufficient, as I'm sure you know. Might even be cheaper. Especially if you're haying dry cows.

 

[anewcomer]

Best thread in years! Keep thinking, folks!

 

[Rydero]

Let's try to agree on some actual facts. Cow consumption is based on body weight. A 2000 lb. cow does not eat twice what a 1000 lb. cow eats. But, it's close, closer to 2/3s. If you're running 100 1400 lb. cows, you could run 140 1000 lb. cows on the same forage base. Not exactly, but close. Let's assume 100% weaned calf crop and that every cow weans a calf 50% of her body weight. Each hypothetical herd will raise 70,000 lbs. of calf. Which calf crop brings in more money? If we look at data, out of Nebraska I think, the larger the cow, the lower percentage of body weight weaned as cow weight increases. 1000 lb. cows does not mean small or even medium frame calves. If we were to use terminal bulls, the calves would be very acceptable to the sale barn market. Don't even start to argue about the breed up an bigger cows versus smaller cows.

The herd of 140 is going to bring in less than you think. How much are you paying for bred cows or heifers? You need 40 of them. @1500 (cheap) that's $60000. There's other additional costs associated with the extra calves but that's the first that needs to be overcome.

 

[Silver]

1000 lb cows can have a positive RFI. Larger cows can have a negative RFI. Just sayin'

 

[ClinchValley86]

Will have a say, I felt out weights were low last year at weaning. Cows were in tip top shape. Calves were in good condition. But appeared smaller. I dont have scales though.

I will have to say, from what im observing with our small herd, the larger/longer legged animals do lose condition quicker.

I much prefer my 1100 to 1300 lb cows. We brought in a moderate bull this time. Sold the 5 year old in November, it weighed 2200. Hoping this guy tops out around 18 or 1900.

We calve around January to February. Just keep good hay out and they do well. Debating pulling the bull til June/July though. Gotta get a spot to out him though.

Greg doesn't pull bulls does he? Ive left bull in since 2016, went from Feb March calves to early January calves. Thr mild winter has been nice though. And moving cattle around and made limited amounts of mud thankfully. Calves coming into a world without mud is making me so happy.