Grass Tetany - Lucky/TexasBred

[inyati13]

Lucky, I saw you mentioned in the April Cow Country News. But help me out here. I hope you read, "Cows Need Salt to Avoid Grass Tetany" by Heather Smith Thomas. The article says that although magnesium is recommended to prevent grass tetany, sodium chloride is essential in order for the cows to use the magnesium. Calcium deficiency is also a factor. The research by Dr. Thomas Swerchzek is mainly being reported.

What he found is that sodium chloride has to be available in the form of blocks or in the loose mineral containing the magnesium for the cow to utilixe the minerals to prevent grass tetany.

One of the most shocking statements was that if you are supplying the magnesium mineral in the absence of sodium chloride, you are better off to just put out a white salt block. What he found was that in episodes of grass tetany losses in Kentucky and Missouri was that the old time farmers who only put out white salt blocks lost significantly less cattle than the farmers who were only supplying loose mineral high in magnesium but in the absence of sodium chloride.

http://www.westerncowman.com/2013/Janua ... iller.html

Here is the mineral I use:
Ultralyx® 14% Hi Mag Mineral
Nutrient Guarantees
Calcium, Min 19.0%
Calcium, Max 22.8%
Phosphorus, Min 1.0%
Salt, Min 9.1%
Salt, Max 10.9%
Magnesium, Min 14.0%
Copper, Min 500 ppm
Manganese, Min 1,000 ppm
Selenium, Min 26 ppm
Zinc, Min 2,000 ppm
Vitamin A, Min 20,000 IU/lb
Vitamin D-3, Min 5,000 IU/lb
Vitamin E, Min 20 IU/lb
Product Ingredients

Calcium Carbonate, Magnesium Oxide, Salt, Molasses Products, Processed Grain By-Products, Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Hydrogenated Soybean Oil, Manganous Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Chloride, Copper Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Carbonate, Red Iron Oxide, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D-3 Supplement and Vitamin E Supplement.

 

[trappersteve]

Inyati, not to hijack your post but I have a 3 year old hereford cow that every time I feed this herd she eats a little feed and goes straight to the brown salt block that I have for them and will probably lick this thing for 15 minutes. I also have hi mag mineral that is free choice, they don't eat much of this I think they walk by maybe once or twice a week and lick it once and walk on. I was wondering if there is like a blood test that can be done to check mineral levels or am I overthinking this and will the cows regulate it theirselves.

 

[Lucky_P]

Ron.
I'm not a Heather Smith Thomas fan.
This is not the first time she's put out this stuff from Dr. Swerzcek.
Here's the letter the UofKY folks put out in response to it the last time; suspect they'll be sending a similar response to KCA.
http://beefmagazine.com/nutrition/speci ... lt-article

 

[cowgirl8]

I've always been told that they get almost nothing from the salt blocks. We feed mineral mix and keep it out year round. And i know yall dont want to hear this but cured chicken litter is a great mineral source... :hide:

 

[TexasBred]

Inyati I'm a strong proponent of supplying both salt and mineral separately even though many minerals already contain some salt. The mineral you list has salt in it as well as the elevated levels of magnesium. Other than that and some protein I personally would classify it as a poorly formulated mineral. Mineral and vitamin levels are simply not adequate.

 

[John SD]

Magnesium is a very unpalatable mineral. So it stands to reason that it has to be included in a palatable salt or mineral mix, or feed.

Mag cake is very popular this time of year, but requires daily feeding and each cow needs to eat her share.

Easiest way to feed mag is in a molasses based lick tub designed for the purpose. A cheaper way to do it mix your own "tub". I have used cracked corn/DDG mixed with small amounts of mag with salt or a regular bag mineral as a limiter in tubs and let the cows have at it.

Grass tetany is easily preventable at reasonable cost, but you have to start getting mag into the lactating cow before the grazing season starts. After you turn her out on green pasture she pretty much loses interest in anything else, and therein lies the danger.

As much precip as we have here lately, when the sun comes out the grass is going to take off. Just as soon as it warms up enough to melt the snow off of it.

 

[inyati13]

Inyati, not to hijack your post but I have a 3 year old hereford cow that every time I feed this herd she eats a little feed and goes straight to the brown salt block that I have for them and will probably lick this thing for 15 minutes. I also have hi mag mineral that is free choice, they don't eat much of this I think they walk by maybe once or twice a week and lick it once and walk on. I was wondering if there is like a blood test that can be done to check mineral levels or am I overthinking this and will the cows regulate it theirselves.

I will pass on what my vet, Dr Darin Stansfield told me. He said that a cow does not know what she needs. Thus, they will ingest what has the sensation of salt on their tongue (salt, BTW is not a taste, it is considered a sensation like heat or cold, if you want to check this, google "taste zones of the tongue", there is a zone for salt) to satisfy their mineral needs. According to him, if you put out white salt, the cow will satisfy her salt needs on the white salt because it is more palatable. As a result, your cow will only get salt and no minerals. TexasBred is invited to explain how he avoids this from happening as he stated he recommends putting out both.

In my case, my loose mineral provides both salt (sodium chloride) and the other minerals, so I follow my vets advice and do not put out salt.

 

[inyati13]

Ron.
I'm not a Heather Smith Thomas fan.
This is not the first time she's put out this stuff from Dr. Swerzcek.
Here's the letter the UofKY folks put out in response to it the last time; suspect they'll be sending a similar response to KCA.
http://beefmagazine.com/nutrition/speci ... lt-article

Excellent. I was alarmed and wondered what was going on. That article sent me to wondering if I was misssing the boat. Nevertheless, I was relieved to see my loose mineral contains salt.

 

[inyati13]

Inyati I'm a strong proponent of supplying both salt and mineral separately even though many minerals already contain some salt. The mineral you list has salt in it as well as the elevated levels of magnesium. Other than that and some protein I personally would classify it as a poorly formulated mineral. Mineral and vitamin levels are simply not adequate.

TB, I am confident you have justification for both salt and loose mineral. My vet does not recommend that.

Is there a widely distributed loose mineral formulation that you could recommend? Thanks.

 

[wbvs58]

Ron, I believe that sodium is the main positive ion that the kidney has the ability to conserve. If the body is low in sodium it will excrete other +ve ions in order to hang onto every bit sodium that goes through the kidneys. I think it makes sense to ensure adequate salt is there when trying to get the likes of magnesium elevated.
Ken

 

[John SD]

Inyati I'm a strong proponent of supplying both salt and mineral separately even though many minerals already contain some salt. The mineral you list has salt in it as well as the elevated levels of magnesium. Other than that and some protein I personally would classify it as a poorly formulated mineral. Mineral and vitamin levels are simply not adequate.

TB, I am confident you have justification for both salt and loose mineral. My vet does not recommend that.

Is there a widely distributed loose mineral formulation that you could recommend? Thanks.

I agree with TB. inyati, with all due respect to your vet, it doesn't matter what he recommends if his advice does not work out in real life.

There is probably something out there, but I am not aware of a loose mineral specifically formulated with extra mag to combat grass tetany. Protein and/or mineral tubs with extra mag, yes.

I maintain the most economical and most effective option is to buy a bag of mag and mix it with something your cows will eat. If your cows will eat salt, then put mag in the salt. If your cows will eat mineral, then put the mag in the mineral. If you can get them to eat a lb of mag cake every day or so, go with cake. Any decent feed supply store has these products on hand this time of year.

My cows found my home brew cracked corn/DDG lick tubs with mag irresistable, as long as I didn't get carried a way with the mag. A little mag goes a long way. Start out with a cup full or so in a 5 gal bucket, and work up from there.

The bottom line is to do whatever you have to in order to get some mag into those cows before it is too late. That includes giving them just plain old salt with mag in it if necessary. ;-)

There is another thread on here of someone losing a cow that was special to them. She had some age on her, and possibly it was simply a heart attach. The only way to find out for sure would have been to do a timely post.

If grass tetany was the cause of death, then obviously the cow did not have enough mag in her system, or it was too little, too late. There is a very narrow window of opportunity to save a cow that goes down with an interperitoneal injection of cal/dex/mag. Same stuff you would use on a cow with milk fever. Unfortunately with grass tetany death is the first you see of a problem.

Here is a related salt/mineral/palatability discussion from a couple years ago. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=75182

 

[inyati13]

John SD, I saw that other thread last evening when I was reading the article mentioned in my OP. I was shocked by the article and Lucky indicated that it might be over-stated. However, I seem to remember from animal physiology some of what Ken is talking about. The Na ion is extremely important so it makes sense to keep the sodium ion concentration up while getting the magnesium up too. There are loose minerals formulated to address grass tetany. Go to this site:

http://www.ultralyx.com/

Follow to the loose mineral and you will see the high mag loose minerals that are formulated to address the total mineral needs. I posted the analysis of the loose mineral I am using and TB took a look at it. It may not be of the quality I should be using but it is designed for feeding in this area when grass tetany is a problem. It does include salt at around 10 %.

I agree with you about the vet recommendations. I will do what is best for my livestock. Actually, I have not seen any signs of grass tetany. I have lost one cow in the fours years I have been raising them. I assumed it was bloat but that is speculation. It could have been grass tetany.

 

[inyati13]

Ron, I believe that sodium is the main positive ion that the kidney has the ability to conserve. If the body is low in sodium it will excrete other +ve ions in order to hang onto every bit sodium that goes through the kidneys. I think it makes sense to ensure adequate salt is there when trying to get the likes of magnesium elevated.
Ken

Ken, does the 10 % salt in my loose mineral provide enough Na?

 

[tom4018]

Lucky, I saw you mentioned in the April Cow Country News. But help me out here. I hope you read, "Cows Need Salt to Avoid Grass Tetany" by Heather Smith Thomas. The article says that although magnesium is recommended to prevent grass tetany, sodium chloride is essential in order for the cows to use the magnesium. Calcium deficiency is also a factor. The research by Dr. Thomas Swerchzek is mainly being reported.

What he found is that sodium chloride has to be available in the form of blocks or in the loose mineral containing the magnesium for the cow to utilixe the minerals to prevent grass tetany.

One of the most shocking statements was that if you are supplying the magnesium mineral in the absence of sodium chloride, you are better off to just put out a white salt block. What he found was that in episodes of grass tetany losses in Kentucky and Missouri was that the old time farmers who only put out white salt blocks lost significantly less cattle than the farmers who were only supplying loose mineral high in magnesium but in the absence of sodium chloride.

http://www.westerncowman.com/2013/Janua ... iller.html

Here is the mineral I use:
Ultralyx® 14% Hi Mag Mineral
Nutrient Guarantees
Calcium, Min 19.0%
Calcium, Max 22.8%
Phosphorus, Min 1.0%
Salt, Min 9.1%
Salt, Max 10.9%
Magnesium, Min 14.0%
Copper, Min 500 ppm 2000
Manganese, Min 1,000 ppm 3400
Selenium, Min 26 ppm
Zinc, Min 2,000 ppm 4000
Vitamin A, Min 20,000 IU/lb 300,000
Vitamin D-3, Min 5,000 IU/lb 30,000
Vitamin E, Min 20 IU/lb 300
Product Ingredients

Calcium Carbonate, Magnesium Oxide, Salt, Molasses Products, Processed Grain By-Products, Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Hydrogenated Soybean Oil, Manganous Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Chloride, Copper Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Carbonate, Red Iron Oxide, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D-3 Supplement and Vitamin E Supplement.

I put in bold some of big differences in the mineral we feed. I am sure there are better minerals than what we use. Our consumption is not very good right now, I feed them a little grain with mineral mixed in it to be sure they get some mineral during tetany season.

 

[dun]

There is probably something out there, but I am not aware of a loose mineral specifically formulated with extra mag to combat grass tetany.

Check with a Vigortone dealer. The himag we use is 16% salt and 10% along with the other usual stuff. It also has CTC and IGR. We use it every spring and have never had a problem with grass tetany.

 

[John SD]

There is probably something out there, but I am not aware of a loose mineral specifically formulated with extra mag to combat grass tetany.

Check with a Vigortone dealer. The himag we use is 16% salt and 10% along with the other usual stuff. It also has CTC and IGR. We use it every spring and have never had a problem with grass tetany.

My Vigortone dealer might have that mineral. I never fed or asked for mineral with CTC or IGR in it.

I clicked on the Ultralyx link inyati posted. No wonder I have never heard of it. The closest dealers are 300 - 400 miles away. :shock:

 

[dun]

There is probably something out there, but I am not aware of a loose mineral specifically formulated with extra mag to combat grass tetany.

Check with a Vigortone dealer. The himag we use is 16% salt and 10% along with the other usual stuff. It also has CTC and IGR. We use it every spring and have never had a problem with grass tetany.

My Vigortone dealer might have that mineral. I never fed or asked for mineral with CTC or IGR in it.

I clicked on the Ultralyx link inyati posted. No wonder I have never heard of it. The closest dealers are 300 - 400 miles away. :shock:

You don;t have to have CTC and IGR in it, that;s just the mix that we use.

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

My Vigortone dealer might have that mineral. I never fed or asked for mineral with CTC or IGR in it.

I clicked on the Ultralyx link inyati posted. No wonder I have never heard of it. The closest dealers are 300 - 400 miles away. :shock:

You don;t have to have CTC and IGR in it, that;s just the mix that we use.[/quote]

Same here Dun. We like the fewer flies we see when we use IGR, so we use it.
Ron, our mineral recommends putting out loose stock salt with the mineral. So we have one side the VitaFerm Conceptaide and one side loose stock salt. They use both!

 

[skyhightree1]

I use mineral tubs and the granular brown salt free choice. I just figured it wouldn't hurt.

 

[Nesikep]

Here's what I'd like to see

Ultralyx® 14% Hi Mag Mineral
Nutrient Guarantees
Calcium, Min 19.0%
Calcium, Max 22.8%
Phosphorus, Min 1.0% much more
Salt, Min 9.1% This is just to mix the other stuff in with
Salt, Max 10.9%
Magnesium, Min 14.0%
Copper, Min 500 ppm 2500
Manganese, Min 1,000 I haven't *heard* of manganese deficiencies being common, I'd be fine with this, especially since it interferes with copper
Selenium, Min 26 ppm 100-125ppm for my area, especially in the last trimester
Zinc, Min 2,000 ppm
Vitamin A, Min 20,000 IU/lb 1,200,000 in my mix
Vitamin D-3, Min 5,000 IU/lb 120,000 in my mix
Vitamin E, Min 20 IU/lb 5000 in my mix
Product Ingredients

No Iron? No Cobalt? No Iodine?... I could see omitting the Iron perhaps, but cobalt is essential for B vitamin synthesis in the rumen, and is hard to over-do, my mix has 100ppm Cobalt. Iodine is another important one, and I haven't heard of iodine poisoning, My mix has 500 ppm. As for Iron, my mix has 7500mg/kg (or ppm), and it also interferes with copper, and I would have less if I had the choice.

What I see with this, is that it's going to get expensive, and quick, and possibly not be everything you need.
Why expensive? well, Salt is usually the motivating, and limiting factor in mineral consumption with cows, 10% salt will mean they will lick this not for it's mineral, but to try and get enough salt out of it.
The Calcium/Phosphorus ratio is a rather local thing, but phosphorus is also one of the expensive ingredients, so they can sell a cheaper product if they leave some P out of it... It's up to you to know if it has what you need... I don't need calcium.. I got TONS.. I have NO phosphorus though, my mineral is either 6Ca, 12P, or 9/18... the second is more expensive by a fair bit, and is otherwise fairly similar except for less selenium...

Cows don't know what they need, except for water, food, and salt... They kinda know they need *something* when they're low on phosphorus, and will eat rocks, wood, bones, etc, but they won't usually pick out the right stuff to chew on.

With my mix, I put about 25% mineral mix, and 75% salt.. with that ratio, they get FAR more mineral than even the 'complete' mineral salt blocks. Most importantly, 'mineral blocks' do not usually contain calcium and phosphorus either.

I can't tell you that Ultralyx is wrong for you, I can certainly say it's terribly wrong for me, and could see improvements to it that would probably be good for most locations.

I'd say get a blood test done, I think I paid about $50, and it was the most worthwhile money I've ever spent at the vet clinic. You need a special test tube and needle to draw the blood, your vet should just give you a couple, and then when you are AI'ing your cows, it's pretty easy to find that mammary vein and get a sample. Then you have a really good starting point for chosing your minerals.

Lastly, Oxide forms of minerals are always the least soluble, thus the least usable. That mix uses Magnesium Oxide, which won't be much good (though magnesium is more soluble in any form than many other minerals like copper, iron, etc), thus you need a ton of it, Dollars to doughnuts if it were magnesium sulfate or magnesium phosphate, it's usability would triple, or better. My mix has 0.5% Magnesium, don't know in what form though.. I have never had problems with grass tetany and haven't heard of it in this area.