Government bailout thread?

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The evils of living on credit. These folks are really going to be surprised after they walk away from their obligations to find that renting anything more than a "dump" is going to be impossible. They have ruined what credit they did have and are now not creditworthy. For anyone that has been responsible with good credit and a stable job, it will soon be a great time to go house shopping.[/quote]


When my daughter was at college she rented an apartment (actually I rented an apartment along with the parents of the other girl ) . They did credit checks and background checks on everybody, by the time I did the paperwork to rent this apartment I could have bought the thing .

Larry
 
The following is a quote from todays wall street journal...

First of all, the financial storms over the past year have -- before last week -- been largely confined to securities markets and to interbank loans among commercial and investment banks. Bank loans to commercial and industrial business, real estate and consumers continued to expand nearly every month. Commercial and industrial loans exceeded $1.5 trillion this August, up from less than $1.2 trillion a year earlier. Real-estate loans exceeded $3.6 trillion, up from less than $3.4 trillion a year ago. Consumer loans were $845 billion, up from $737 billion. Credit standards are tougher, which is surely a good thing, but interest rates for creditworthy borrowers remain low.
 
1982vett":1qoronrn said:
For anyone that has been responsible with good credit and a stable job, it will soon be a great time to go house shopping.

I had thought so too, but unless you buy a foreclosure/reposession it seems that people still think the places are worth the over inflated price they paid for it.
 
Jim62":3e1f2xtg said:
How many $100,000 houses would $700 billion buy? :?:

$700 Billion would buy 7 Million houses
$700 Trillion would buy 7 Billion houses
 
KenB":27j82ghg said:
Jim62":27j82ghg said:
How many $100,000 houses would $700 billion buy? :?:

$700 Billion would buy 7 Million houses
$700 Trillion would buy 7 Billion houses

$700 Trillion here and $700 Trillion there and pretty soon it would add up to serious money.
 
I've got a few friends that owe me a total of 700 dollars. I needed that money to pay my bills but since they didn't have the money to pay me, I am broke. I have however came up with a real simple plan. I am going to go to my friends that owe me the 700 and tell them that since they are broke, I am going to forgive their loan but to save my skin, I am also going to borrow 700 dollars from them to pay off my debts. It's a real good plan. I think it'll work. I think my creditors will take the I.O.U. from my friends as collateral.
 
dun":1wu44s0m said:
KenB":1wu44s0m said:
Jim62":1wu44s0m said:
How many $100,000 houses would $700 billion buy? :?:

$700 Billion would buy 7 Million houses
$700 Trillion would buy 7 Billion houses

$700 Trillion here and $700 Trillion there and pretty soon it would add up to serious money.


Im not to sure. The more $700 trillions you have the less each $700 trillion is worth. :help:
 
Here's an informative article.-----------------

The Root Causes of the Financial Crisis

Leverage and the Shadow Banking System

Posted by: Blackhedd

Saturday, September 20, 2008 at 09:18AM

55 Comments

Let me tell you a story about mortgage-backed securities purchased with borrowed money ("leverage").

An MBS is basically a package of individual home mortgages pooled together so that it can be priced and analyzed like a bond. (And usually the pool is also divided horizontally into credit-quality tranches too.)

MBS are a big hit with institutional investors, because their bond-like analytics made it possible to do something they've been wanting to do for decades, which is to gain exposure to the US mortgage market. (Compared to almost any other kind of asset, a mortgage has higher credit quality. Most people, when they get squeezed, will pay their taxes and their mortgage and let their other bills slide.)

And Wall Street firms were thrilled with this piece of financial engineering because the bundling and marketing of MBS generated enormous fee income. And like the drug dealer who uses his own product, Wall Streeters often bought the higher tranches of MBS for their own accounts too. (Bear Stearns and Merrill Lynch were particularly guilty of this.)

So how do you make a good thing better? You buy it with borrowed money. All over the world these last few years, there's been a tremendous amount of buying of MBS by banks, Wall Street firms, insurance companies like AIG, hedge funds, even money market funds and small towns in Norway.

No less than Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac bought acres and acres of this paper.

And many of these players used funds borrowed from banks and from the overnight money-markets to buy it. If you want one single root cause, one thing to blame for the financial crisis out of all the rest, this is it.

Here's how it happens...

Let's say you can borrow money overnight at five percent. (The numbers in this example are not necessarily representative of any specific point in time. Overnight rates today are far lower than they were during the MBS craze.) And you can use the money to buy an MBS that is expected to pay a yield of 5.75% over its five-year term. And the MBS has a triple-A, investment-grade credit-quality rating.

Wouldn't you want to do this trade as large as anyone will let you? Let's say that you're a hedge fund with a billion dollars in capital. Let's say you levered up 30-to-1 (which is not unrealistic). Conceivably you could construct a $30 billion portfolio of MBS off the $1 billion in capital. Your raw annual investment return (without counting a handful of external costs like insurance) would theoretically be 30 times 75 basis points. WOW! That's far, far, far above the "normal" risk-adjusted investment yield of 8 to 10 percent that institutional investors have targeted as a benchmark for decades.

Now do you see where the whole problem came from? Ok, what happened next?

As soon as the housing bubble burst, the values of all the MBS had to be reduced because default rates on the underlying mortgages started rising. You saw an increase in the amount of risk that any given mortgage would default, and that in turn would increase the risk of the MBS that the mortgage had been packaged into.

You always have to receive a higher yield on a riskier investment. (That's why Treasury securities, which are risk-free, normally have the lowest interest rates.) But if the MBS has already been cut, packaged, and sold, the income that it generates is fixed permanently. In that case, the MBS will behave just like any other fixed-income security: its value will decline, which effectively raises the yield.

But what if you bought the MBS at a certain price to obtain a certain interest rate? You now have an unrealized capital loss, because the MBS in your portfolio is worth less than you paid for it.

Ah, but you say it doesn't matter. Just hold the darned thing until it matures. It will keep paying the same amount of interest (which doesn't change). A small number of them will default, and you'll take those losses in stride.

Good point. But here's the problem: what if you borrowed the money to buy the MBS?

If you borrow money to buy something, the guy you borrowed from wants to make sure you'll pay him back. And since your ability to pay him back depends on whether the MBS will default, your lender will enforce your capital position at all times. (He's managing his so-called "counterparty risk." He wants to be sure you have enough capital to withstand losses without passing them on to him.)

Simply put, if your leveraged MBS portfolio declines in value by even a small amount, you lender will demand that you add to your capital ("margin call") in order to protect him. If you don't, he can and will seize your assets and put you out of business.

In two sentences, that's what been happening all over Wall Street for over a year now.

So there's a huge amount of MBS paper out there that was purchased for more than it's worth now. When you've lost that much money, you can't buy anything new. (In the jargon, you don't have enough balance sheet.) But you're still stuck holding the distressed assets until they mature.

Multiply that by thousands of institutions across the country, and you'll see why we have a credit crisis. Any bank that's forced to take big losses in an MBS portfolio doesn't have enough capital to make any new loans. It's the biggest systemic margin call in history.

THIS IS WHY THE ECONOMY SLOWED DOWN, BEGINNING LATE IN 2007. And I'd been saying that in this space a whole quarter before it even happened. This is also why economic stimulus plans like the one we got this year from George Bush and will get from Obama if he's elected President, only make the problem worse, not better. And it's also why the economy can not recover until the bad paper all runs off.

This is the root cause of all the failures by one investment bank, commercial bank, hedge fund and insurance company after another. It's why the world's "official" investors (foreign central banks and sovereign wealth funds) quietly insisted that the Treasury explicitly guarantee Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac's securities. It's why private equity has come to a halt and the stock market has stopped growing.

And it's the problem that Hank Paulson and Ben Bernanke have stepped up to solve.

Now why on earth would you suppose anyone would let people use 30-1 leverage, or even more, to buy risky paper?

This is another extremely important point for you to grasp: The leveraged purchases were not considered risky at the time. People make investments expecting to make money. They don't go in expecting to lose money and get bailed out by the taxpayers.

The combination of securitization and faulty credit-quality ratings made many MBS look like some of the safest investments out there. Because of their perceived safety, which nearly everyone accepted, lenders had no problem giving hedge funds and Wall Street firms the money to buy MBS on 30-1 capital ratios.

In fact, 30-1 would have seemed conservative, implying as it did a raw default rate of something like 3%. Even today, in the middle of the mortgage maelstrom, default rates haven't gotten that high.

And people with access to really cheap capital can readily buy Treasury bonds (which have no default risk at all) on 100-1 leverage. Fannie and Freddie are leveraged more than 200-1. (In effect, the federal takeover of F/F was the fulfillment of a margin call by foreign central banks.)

But at high leverage ratios (or conversely, low capital ratios), your lenders will keep you on a much shorter leash. The less capital you have compared to your assets, the less skin you have in the game. The lender perceives his risk to be far higher than yours. So you'll get a margin call at the first sign of trouble.

And when the MBS bet turned bad and the margin calls started coming, a lot of bad things happened (which I've written about in past posts as they were happening), and we got to the point we're at now.

But think about this a bit more carefully. If a hedge fund or structured investment vehicle borrows short-term money in order to buy somewhat longer-term MBS (and make a profit on the interest-rate differential), what exactly is it doing?

It's creating credit. That fund has made the money available for someone to get a mortgage and buy a house. If that's not clear to you, keep thinking about it until it is.

The only difference between what that fund has done, and what a normal commercial bank does every day, is the source of money. The bank gets the money it uses to make loans from deposits that it takes from the public.

And depositary institutions are regulated heavily. Among other things, they will generally avoid being leveraged any more than 10-1. The regulation is part of the price they pay for the FDIC deposit-guarantee.

So a hedge fund that invests in MBS isn't functionally different from a bank, but it escapes the banking regulations because it doesn't take deposits from the public. It's part of a vast "shadow banking system" that creates credit in an unregulated way. So why the hell are they allowed to run 30-1 leverage ratios, even to buy assets considered safe?

That's something we will need to change.

-Francis Cianfrocca

http://www.redstate.com/diaries/redstat ... al-crisis/
 
Looks like the tea party is over in Washington and folks are chosing up sides on the bailout. Today is going to be very interesting.
 
If they government is going to fix this, they need to examine everything all the way down to the bug dust.

I make decisions based on facts and not emotions. None of us have seen all the facts yet.

There is one simple thing we learned in economics classes and that is how much we should alot from our salaries for housing. To many forgot that economic lesson it seems.
 
skyline":1je8gyit said:
1982vett":1je8gyit said:
KenB":1je8gyit said:
I would like to know who ended up with the $600 billion that they lost? :roll: :mad:
The money went to whoever sold an overpriced home to someone who did not have the means to afford it.

And the money is apparently going to come from you, me, our kids, and our kid's kids.
:mad:

Sky..this whole thing is stack of blocks..you begin with the local lender, he sells to the secondary market, and on and on and on...when the system breaks everything goes in reverse...fed is stepping in to stop this as close to the top as possible.....but "big fat cat" heads definitely should roll and hearing and indictments issued if warranted. This thing is so complicated from start to finish I doubt any of us would fully understand it if someone explained it "slowly" to us....another of the problems...the crooks always seem to be at least one step ahead of the regulators.....Local home owned banks should only be effected minimally if at all other than tightening up their underwriting standards a bit.
 
1982vett":1wubi1li said:
The evils of living on credit. These folks are really going to be surprised after they walk away from their obligations to find that renting anything more than a "dump" is going to be impossible. They have ruined what credit they did have and are now not creditworthy. For anyone that has been responsible with good credit and a stable job, it will soon be a great time to go house shopping.

Not exactly vett. Lets say you have one of those interest only house payments on a house you bought in 2002 that sold for $422K in California. In 2006 the house is worth $200K on the market so you default out of convenience. It has nothing to do with income. You then buy a house down the street for "half price" and the bank fincances it. Your credit wasn't ruined at all.

This has been going on out on the west coast for a few years now. It started spreading east too.

Check it out.
 
Even if it was an interest only loan. They bought the house for 422K, if they walked away from it for 200K, they still owe 222K. Their credit should be ruined and Uncle Sam should come at them with a tax bill for the 222K the lender had to write off. A forgiven debt is considered taxable income.

Everyone doing these loans was betting the house would be worth 500K+ in a few years and could then refinance. Sorry, it didn't happen. Now they are in deep poop for doing the things they did. I do believe those practices are about to change and the worst part is it probably won't be pretty for anyone.

Now it's fine and dandy if they pay off the mortgage and go down the street and by the same house for half the price.
I did similar myself in 1991. I was underwater in the condo I owned (clear and paid for) by about 25%. Bought a house in a depressed market (not depressed neighborhood) for about 60 cents on the dollar. Rent from the condo pretty much paid for the house. By 2001 the market had recouped the losses and I sold the condo with a 25% gain and 2003 sold the house for a 120% gain.

Just because and asset (home) can't be sold for the money owed on doesn't mean a loan on it is bad. It is your home, you are liviving in it, you have to stay somewhere. That in itself has value. Keep paying the mortgage and it is likely in 5 - 10 years any lost value will have been returned.

It is when you don't make enough to pay your mortgage or have overspent on other toys and the equity in a home evaporates because of market fluctuations and then you can't afford the payment because the ARM reset. That is simply living beyond your means. Hence the trainwreck that has occured.
 
1982vett":26s6ihib said:
Even if it was an interest only loan. They bought the house for 422K, if they walked away from it for 200K, they still owe 222K. Their credit should be ruined and Uncle Sam should come at them with a tax bill for the 222K the lender had to write off. A forgiven debt is considered taxable income.

Everyone doing these loans was betting the house would be worth 500K+ in a few years and could then refinance. Sorry, it didn't happen. Now they are in deep poop for doing the things they did. I do believe those practices are about to change and the worst part is it probably won't be pretty for anyone.

Now it's fine and dandy if they pay off the mortgage and go down the street and by the same house for half the price.
I did similar myself in 1991. I was underwater in the condo I owned (clear and paid for) by about 25%. Bought a house in a depressed market (not depressed neighborhood) for about 60 cents on the dollar. Rent from the condo pretty much paid for the house. By 2001 the market had recouped the losses and I sold the condo with a 25% gain and 2003 sold the house for a 120% gain.

Just because and asset (home) can't be sold for the money owed on doesn't mean a loan on it is bad. It is your home, you are liviving in it, you have to stay somewhere. That in itself has value. Keep paying the mortgage and it is likely in 5 - 10 years any lost value will have been returned.

It is when you don't make enough to pay your mortgage or have overspent on other toys and the equity in a home evaporates because of market fluctuations and then you can't afford the payment because the ARM reset. That is simply living beyond your means. Hence the trainwreck that has occured.


Amen, Vette.

And those mortgage lenders now want us to bail them out. They should be prosecuted, all of them and go to big boy jail for a while. Interest only loans should be illegal. I know most of you all don't like the idea of regulation, but this is one business that needs more oversight. I keep living here in the hopes that the market will pick up and I can make my selling price attractive enough and be able to get into something else at a better price. This bubble isn't finished bursting. I need to relocate but I am staying here for a while yet and watching things carefully.
 
Lammie":1zxd9cmx said:
And those mortgage lenders now want us to bail them out. They should be prosecuted, all of them and go to big boy jail for a while. Interest only loans should be illegal. I know most of you all don't like the idea of regulation, but this is one business that needs more oversight. I keep living here in the hopes that the market will pick up and I can make my selling price attractive enough and be able to get into something else at a better price. This bubble isn't finished bursting. I need to relocate but I am staying here for a while yet and watching things carefully.

Regulation... yes. Social experimentation by relaxing loan requirements for underqualified borrowers, requiring banks to make loans to underqualified borrowers in order to expand, blaming everybody and not taking any responsibility for the problem, giving high paying jobs at Fannie and Freddie to political cronies without qualifications to run a major business, accepting political donations from Fannie and Freddie (government sponsored enterprises).... NO. And no, I am not criticizing one political party. There is plenty of blame to go around.
 
skyline":hgc9wis9 said:
]Regulation... yes. Social experimentation by relaxing loan requirements for underqualified borrowers, requiring banks to make loans to underqualified borrowers in order to expand, blaming everybody and not taking any responsibility for the problem, giving high paying jobs at Fannie and Freddie to political cronies without qualifications to run a major business, accepting political donations from Fannie and Freddie (government sponsored enterprises).... NO. And no, I am not criticizing one political party. There is plenty of blame to go around.
Yep, we need leaders and not repairmen or at least we need managers that can see a problem and have it fixed before it blows up in their face. Some of it is as simple as enforcing laws and rules we already have.
 

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