Gonna Lose a Bull

[Red Bull Breeder]

That a tough deal Buddy.

 

[3waycross]

That a tough deal Buddy.

Thanks Randy. I hate to tell you but he was as purty a red bull as you could want. After looking at him last night I don't think he's going to make the withdrawal time to go to slaughter.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

I wish he would have turned around for you. I don't like to lose one and know you don't either. Lots of time and pride goes down with them.

 

[mmroxie]

Sorry to hear this 3way. I hope that you get some answers, I hate the unknown worse than anything.

The symptoms sound like aspiration pneumonia. Any chance that he could have accidentally gotten a Sulfa bolus in his lung?

thats a really good point, and would make sense why the antibiotics didnt help. coulda screwed up his lungs too bad to recover from

 

[MO_cows]

I'm sorry you caught such a tough break on this bull. If he was a flatland bull, nobody would care about the PAP test and he'd probably be fine today. Another example of how "no good deed goes unpunished".

 

[Rafter S]

I'm sorry you caught such a tough break on this bull. If he was a flatland bull, nobody would care about the PAP test and he'd probably be fine today. Another example of how "no good deed goes unpunished".

Someone enlighten me please. What is a PAP test? I've seen it mentioned here on the forum several times lately, but had never heard of one before.

 

[3waycross]

I'm sorry you caught such a tough break on this bull. If he was a flatland bull, nobody would care about the PAP test and he'd probably be fine today. Another example of how "no good deed goes unpunished".

Someone enlighten me please. What is a PAP test? I've seen it mentioned here on the forum several times lately, but had never heard of one before.

They run a probe into the bulls pulmonary artery to check the pressure. There is a scale basically from 33 to whatever. a good high altitude animal will be from 34 to 42. HOWEVER there is a variable in there if they score a 36 at 5000ft it don't mean nearly as much as if they score the same at 7500ft. So it's kind of a sliding scale.

The bull in question here scored a 38 at 7800ft....that's just about perfect. That means he could be turned out up to 10,000ft and not suffer any consequences of Brisket(high altitude) disease. Which is in effect heart failure.

 

[LazyARanch]

So very sorry to hear this Vic!! Sucks for all involved... you, the buyer, and most of all that nice bull!!

 

[Workinonit Farm]

Wow Vic, that's a tough deal. I'm sorry to hear about the bull. I hope things go smoothly for you from here on.

When you get some definitive answers, please share, I'd love to know too.

 

[LauraleesFarm]

Thanks for posting the reason for doing PA pressures on a bull. I'm an ICU nurse and it intrigued me. Even in critical care patients we do not measure PA pressures except once in a blue moon due to the increased risk of pulmonary emboli. I can't see how a bovine would have less risk, or how the benefit of this knowledge would outweigh the risk. Its just about the most invasive thing you could do to a living body, except for coronary artery cannulation/stenting or something intracranial. Is this something that everyone in mountainous regions has to do to pass a breeding soundness exam?

And if so, wouldn't the cows need testing also?

Very interesting indeed.

We do have some less invasive ways of measuring/calculating human cardiac index/outputs without actually wedging a pressure nowdays, using femoral arterial lines.

 

[Kingfisher]

Sorry to hear this 3way. I hope that you get some answers, I hate the unknown worse than anything.

The symptoms sound like aspiration pneumonia. Any chance that he could have accidentally gotten a Sulfa bolus in his lung?

thats a really good point, and would make sense why the antibiotics didnt help. coulda screwed up his lungs too bad to recover from

Well...if that's the case the most bad ass vet in the world killed that Bull?...

 

[3waycross]

Thanks for posting the reason for doing PA pressures on a bull. I'm an ICU nurse and it intrigued me. Even in critical care patients we do not measure PA pressures except once in a blue moon due to the increased risk of pulmonary emboli. I can't see how a bovine would have less risk, or how the benefit of this knowledge would outweigh the risk.
Its just about the most invasive thing you could do to a living body, except for coronary artery cannulation/stenting or something intracranial. Is this something that everyone in mountainous regions has to do to pass a breeding soundness exam?
Absolutely if they are going to run above 7500ft they have to be pap'd. The way it works is they turn the bulls head to his left and hit him in the jugular with a heavy guage needle then they run a probe that is about the same diameter as heavy butchers twine into the needle and down into his heart. The probe is hooked to a computer screen and it gives a series of reading that are intrepreted by the vet then the whole rig is pulled out.

And if so, wouldn't the cows need testing also?
We have started paping the heifers every fall when we wean. Anything that is a candidate for replacement status is pap tested about 6 weeks after weaning. We don't do it earlier because of the weaning stress giving us false readings.

Very interesting indeed.

We do have some less invasive ways of measuring/calculating human cardiac index/outputs without actually wedging a pressure nowdays, using femoral arterial lines.

 

[3waycross]

Sorry to hear this 3way. I hope that you get some answers, I hate the unknown worse than anything.

The symptoms sound like aspiration pneumonia. Any chance that he could have accidentally gotten a Sulfa bolus in his lung?

thats a really good point, and would make sense why the antibiotics didnt help. coulda screwed up his lungs too bad to recover from

Well...if that's the case the most bad be nice vet in the world killed that Bull?...

Nothing wrong with his lungs and Tim didn't kill my bull. There is a better chance that it is from the balling gun. That Vet has PAP'd over 350,000 animals. He has had cattle die but usually it's from a probe breaking off and killing the animal when it travels thru the heart, or some other cause.

 

[bball]

Perhaps the bolus gun introduced an infection into the esophagus that isn't responding to the typical broad spectrum antibiotics, only getting short term relief from anti flam effect of steroids...or the gun traumatized the esophageal tissue, causing significant inflammation (enough to restrict trachea) antibiotics wouldn't help this, and steroid treatment would provide temporary relief of inflammation. Pure speculation , either way, I am sorry for your troubles.

 

[3waycross]

Perhaps the bolus gun introduced an infection into the esophagus that isn't responding to the typical broad spectrum antibiotics, only getting short term relief from anti flam effect of steroids...or the gun traumatized the esophageal tissue, causing significant inflammation (enough to restrict trachea) antibiotics wouldn't help this, and steroid treatment would provide temporary relief of inflammation. Pure speculation , either way, I am sorry for your troubles.

Either that or it exacerbated an existing condition. I have a picture in my mind of this calf standing in the field one day with his head and neck extended I just cannot for the life of me remember if it was before or after this mess all started.
Thanks for your observation and concern.

 

[boondocks]

Thanks for posting the reason for doing PA pressures on a bull. I'm an ICU nurse and it intrigued me. Even in critical care patients we do not measure PA pressures except once in a blue moon due to the increased risk of pulmonary emboli. I can't see how a bovine would have less risk, or how the benefit of this knowledge would outweigh the risk. Its just about the most invasive thing you could do to a living body, except for coronary artery cannulation/stenting or something intracranial. Is this something that everyone in mountainous regions has to do to pass a breeding soundness exam?

And if so, wouldn't the cows need testing also?

Very interesting indeed.

We do have some less invasive ways of measuring/calculating human cardiac index/outputs without actually wedging a pressure nowdays, using femoral arterial lines.

Isn't (pink) foam at the mouth a symptom of pulmonary embolus? Playing (very) amateur sleuth--just had that fact tucked in my mind from heaven-only-knows-where.
Poor guy (owner, and bull).

 

[alisonb]

I have a real nice purebred red Gelbvieh bull that looked a little off and appeared to have a mild case of footrot starting.

You may be dealing with secondary infection now, one has to wonder why he 'looked a bit off' before the PAP test. Was it indeed footrot or something much more serious.

This is lousy for you, even worse seeing the animal going down hill and not knowing why. Hope he surprises you and recovers.

 

[dieselbeef]

this is all new for me so im in...

 

[3waycross]

I have a real nice purebred red Gelbvieh bull that looked a little off and appeared to have a mild case of footrot starting.

You may be dealing with secondary infection now, one has to wonder why he 'looked a bit off' before the PAP test. Was it indeed footrot or something much more serious.

This is lousy for you, even worse seeing the animal going down hill and not knowing why. Hope he surprises you and recovers.

Alison the symptoms of footrot were clear and we do get a lot of it here so I am fairly certain that he was having an issue with that. However, that doesn't mean there wasn't something else going on. Unfortunately we won't know until it's too late i am afraid.

I haven't mentioned that when he swelled up after the pap test even his brows were swollen almost to the point where his eyes were swelled shut. The banamine and dex helped that but a little of it still persists today

 

[strihafarms]

Sorry for your problems. The most frustrating part is not being able to help. Best wishes.